Archer Melee



  • Was pretty curious to see what the general population thought about archer melee. Is it too strong for a ranged class? Just right? Or even underpowered?

    Personally, I feel like the backstab bonus is fine, but would like to see maybe a -25% damage from the front? Right now they are just MAA minus dodge and using secondary weapons with beefed up backstab.

    I have been using archer quite a bit lately and feel like I should be afraid of a knight charging me with a 2 handed weapon, but I tend to stand my ground knowing I have a very good chance to win.

    What do you guys think about archers’ melee abilities?



  • I could not agree more and I have been saying so for months in many other threads. Point being that a class that has the largest range should not have the current level of melee or armor. If they miss all the opportunities to shoot and kill, they should pay a price for that failure. Currently an archer with the cudgel and some skill can take out 3 players of any class. I have seen it time and time again.

    I have gone into servers with just the cudgel and got top position at the end of the map proving the OP of the archers. But you will get tons of archers that fear the possible nerf and you are about to get a lot of rage against us.

    There is precedence for lowering archer armor or their melee from Age of Chivalry. In AOC, if you managed to cross an entire battlefield, dodging arrows (currently very hard to do in Chiv) to get to an archer, you were given the reward of a one hit killing of an archer, to his face. But if they got an arrow in you, then they had a decent chance of killing you in melee. Most though would run to gain distance and refire at you. This again was acceptable compromise, greatest range for weakest melee. In Chiv this is far from the case. Archers have the best killing range and as the good archers get better, they are rarely missing those that approach them even if you are zig zagging.

    I also think the worst part which not only looks retarded but fails in all logic is archers ability to infinitely block or parry attacks from heavy weapons like mauls, halberds and the like with a dagger or any of the secondary weapons without taking sufficient damage. I have an idea, I will give you a butter knife and you try and parry my baseball bat! I think that gets the point across…



  • Never understood why the archer got a backstab melee bonus - I would’ve thought his special skill was being able to zoom in with bows in the first place.
    Other than that and the cudgel being a tad too stronk, archer melee seems fine.



  • I do think archers should be able to defend themselves, however, I do not fear melee combat as an archer. I feel like archers shouldn’t get a nerf to armor, as they already get killed very very easily.

    This kind of thing should be put to a test before implementing it to see how it goes. Like a beta or something. If archers can still get kills, but difficult to do so, that’s the point… As it currently stands, I can stab the crap out of a knight and him not leave a scratch on me in a lot of cases in public games.

    I do enjoy the backstab bonus and think it could be a fun thing with a stealthy map, but right now, it’s great for doing what archers do best: be annoying. :lol:



  • It all comes down to how skilled both players are - as a knight (my primary class) I am not afraid of archers and most of the time I can kill them easily. I have range, damage and health superiority over them. On top of that archers and crossbowmen don’t have shields when they take a melee weapon and javeliners can’t throw spears quick enough to threaten me with their spear at close range.

    If you can’t win against an archer it tells more about you than it tells about him. Archers should be capable to defend themselves in melee and kill those who carelessly attack them. Situations where an archer is capable of killing me happen because I let them happen. People complain about knives, about cudgel, about almost any weapon archers have. They do so because they have some sort of conviction that archer shouldn’t be able of killing a knight/vanguard. So they say “archer is too strong at a distance, nerf him!” and then “archer is too strong in melee, nerf him!” or “archers have no place in this game, remove them!”.

    Reducing the game to three classes is bad and people who want it are the people who play as two handers or vanguards: because it’s they who can’t defend themselves against arrows, bolts and javelins. They don’t want anyone interrupting their “duels” which are simply fights in the middle of a battle. They are upset when archers kills them. They are upset when somebody kills them from behind. They are upset when someone feints. The list goes on and on. Seriously? This is silly.



  • No archers should be strong at distance (but not OP) and weak in melee. They should be punished for missing and not rewarded for spamming.



  • I was thinking much the same about the Archer melee having recently started playing it because its the only hat I haven’t unlocked. Its pretty easy to fly to the top of the scoreboard with the bows when you get the hang of the arrow drop and a feel for the leading of your shots. After that its childs play to take out foes at a distance with the clencher being I can pull out my club and go toe to toe with any knight.

    On the flip-side I think the javelineer needs a rework, currently the stab and shield attacks seem rather dull with no ability to combo and just generally feeling slow and clunky. I think the javlineers melee abilities need to go up so its a true skirmisher.



  • Its not overpowered. If you are killed by an archer in melee you were just outplayed. Archers are the weakest class in the game. 2 hits with almost any weapon kills us, we have the lowest damage and the shortest reach. I play archer more than any other class. I get more kills with my sword than I do with my bow most games… Thats because im better at melee combat than most people. I usually have the top kills on my team too. But anyways, people make these kind of posts in every game. They get beat by something so it must be OP. Thats the noob way of looking at things. Stop thinking something is op, and start looking for a way to counter it. You don’t have a secondary weapon for no reason, maybe you should use it for once. Ever heard the saying fight fire with fire?



  • I agree with what Ruku said. If you are getting killed by an archer in mellee, it’s not their fault. It’s your own. As much as I hated to admit it, I got killed by an archer and his broad dagger as a knight with full health. I thought I could easily swap to my secondary and chop him up but due to his over-simplistic combat style(mouse 1, pause, mouse 1, pause, mouse 1) combined with facehugging, he got me. How pathetic is that huh?

    Archers are the most fragile of classes, requiring sometimes only two hits of the lowliest of weapons to be killed, so if you are killed by an archer in melee, you were outplayed and overpowered due to your own incompetance. Archers are still deadly in melee, despite their low health and light weapons.



  • They are fine other than Javelin.Weapon switch still way to slow and FFS that buckler needs a MAJOR overhaul. I would rather play with NOTHING and try to block with my weapon thatn that buckler. It is just broke as shit.



  • @Sir:

    Never understood why the archer got a backstab melee bonus - I would’ve thought his special skill was being able to zoom in with bows in the first place.
    Other than that and the cudgel being a tad too stronk, archer melee seems fine.

    Cant zoom in with Javelins.

    Frankly though Javelin is more of a melee class though. It should be an MAA weapon or perhaps a new class altogether.



  • No archers should be strong at distance (but not OP) and weak in melee.

    Oh, they are the weakest melee class in the game.

    They should be punished for missing and not rewarded for spamming.

    They aren’t “rewarded for spamming” like a vanguards or two handers in general are now. Their weapons are short, they die in two hits (sometimes one). Instead of spamming their attacks they must relay on good blocking and attack only when they can afford it (like when someone thinks he can LMB all the time to kill an archer). This is far from being “rewarded for spamming”.



  • Archers get one-shoted by a lot of weapons. How faster do you want them to die? By 0 hits, just by looking? Stop being ridiculous.

    The one-shotting should go, atleast for slashes. A slash should never one-shot anything ever.



  • Wow, so much for logic and balance…… I have said the same defense arguments that you guys are claiming for archers but defending the halberd, that if you die to them, it is your fault and guess what? That argument doesn’t fly with the halberd… Just wait some douche will say, “But the halberd is OP”

    Try playing on a server with just the archer cudgel and spam the 3 swing overhead combo. Sorry but it is virtually impossible to block. I have done this many times and still manage to get 1st or second in kills. One of my clan mates that has become a xbow master, also does this and can pwn 3 players by himself over and over again.

    Then you have the issue of archers being able to parry any and all heavy weapons with a dagger and be able to to it for an extended period of time with zero damage. Yes they are the weakest class in the game as far as armor and sadly it is too high for a ranged class. You should not get all the advantages of sitting back in the distance, picking off the enemy and have superior melee up close. That is not balance.

    I will agree that the javelins could use a buff, not sure where, maybe more ammo. But the idea here is balance, not if an archer should be able to defend himself. He already has the entire range of the map to defend himself because he is a R A N G E class. Since now it is almost impossible to dodge or to juke a average to good archer, they usually put in an arrow or two, sometimes even a oneshot to the head. But if they fail to do what they are supposed to do at range, they should be more vulnerable than they are.

    It is understandable if they can melee 1v1 any class IF they sinked an arrow in their enemy but they should not be able to fight 3 v 1 and win against slower and more armored knights.

    PLEASE explain to me how a dagger can parry a maul or any heavy weapon, over and over again… There is no logic in it and it is beyond stupid. I tell you what, you grab a butter knife and I will grab a baseball bat and lets see you parry my baseball bat without breaking your wrist.

    There is precedence for what needs to be done in AOC with the archers but sadly too many noobs play archer and fear a balance nerf. It always comes down to numbers of who plays what and those that bitch and moan the most get what they want. In this case the halberd is getting a nerf while the archers keep their buff.

    Hell there are several threads already on how archers are breaking the game all you have to do is look and read them. "But I play archer, I don’t want my class nerfed… it is perfectly fine… blah blah blah. Sorry they need a armor nerf.



  • You should not get all the advantages of sitting back in the distance, picking off the enemy and have superior melee up close. That is not balance.

    Why do archers have “superior melee up close”? Do they block faster? Cannot be feinted? Are their weapons so long you need to be very careful when approaching? Are they attacking way faster than they should? Do they have more life and stamina than any other class? You don’t give any solid arguments other than your personal opinion.



  • This isn’t AOC.
    @Martin:

    The old parry system punished you heavily for blocking and since a lot of fights actually revolve around parrying in this game (as opposed to AoC where dancing was more prevalent over parrying) it would be almost impossible to do anything with low health as it will constantly be chipping away/leading to deaths, and you’d be forced to take a step back and regenerate, as opposed to joining in on the fast paced combat. The severe stamina drain on lighter weapons is enough of a punishment, especially with daggers where you will hardly be able to combo, feint or kick at all in prolonged combat.

    Hence why you can block a maul with a dagger, otherwise large weapons would win everytime and maul would be king.
    Archer melee and armor is not going to be nerfed btw, sorry. ;)
    Devs may take a look at the cudgel though.



  • @Sir:

    maul would be king.

    MAUL IS KING. (Maul-ric)



  • @Holy.Death:

    You should not get all the advantages of sitting back in the distance, picking off the enemy and have superior melee up close. That is not balance.

    Why do archers have “superior melee up close”? Do they block faster? Cannot be feinted? Are their weapons so long you need to be very careful when approaching? Are they attacking way faster than they should? Do they have more life and stamina than any other class? You don’t give any solid arguments other than your personal opinion.

    ugh do I have to pull stats? They are the second fastest class in movement, their secondary weapons’ speed is fastest and obviously they have the best range, they can kill all the way across the map. So yes they are attacking faster, parrying faster and I do believe have the second fastest regen rate.

    Besides backstab bonus is complete bullshit. Why should they get a melee bonus? They shouldn’t they are a ranged class. Archers are basically MAA without the dodge and a 1.5 backstab bonus.

    But If I have to pull weapon stats here they are…
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1

    Class stats:
    [AOC.AOCFamilyInfo_Archer]
    GroundSpeed=200
    AccelRate=600.0
    SprintAccelRate=100.0
    JumpZ=380.0
    SprintModifier=1.65
    SprintTime=10.0
    DodgeSpeed=400.0
    DodgeSpeedZ=200.0
    Health=100
    BACK_MODIFY=0.8
    STRAFE_MODIFY=0.8
    FORWARD_MODIFY=1.0
    CROUCH_MODIFY=0.65
    PercentDamageToTake=1.0
    MaxSprintSpeedTime=3.5
    bCanDodge=false
    iDodgeCost=30
    iKickCost=25
    fComboAggressionBonus=1.0
    fBackstabModifier=1.5
    iMissMeleeStrikePenalty=10
    iMissMeleeStrikePenaltyBonus=0
    fShieldStaminaAbsorption=6
    bCanSprintAttack=false
    fStandingSpread=0.05f
    fCrouchingSpread=0.0f
    fWalkingSpread=0.1
    fSprintingSpread=0.25
    fFallingSpread=0.25
    fSpreadPenaltyPerSecond=0.5
    fSpreadRecoveryPerSecond=0.3
    fMaxComplexRelevancyDistanceSquared = 25000000

    [AOC.AOCFamilyInfo_Knight]
    GroundSpeed=180
    AccelRate=400.0
    SprintAccelRate=100.0
    JumpZ=380.0
    SprintModifier=1.65
    SprintTime=10.0
    DodgeSpeed=400.0
    DodgeSpeedZ=200.0
    Health=100
    BACK_MODIFY=0.8
    STRAFE_MODIFY=0.85
    FORWARD_MODIFY=1.0
    CROUCH_MODIFY=0.65
    PercentDamageToTake=0.7
    MaxSprintSpeedTime=4
    bCanDodge=false
    iKickCost=25
    fComboAggressionBonus=1.0
    fBackstabModifier=1.0
    iMissMeleeStrikePenalty=10
    iMissMeleeStrikePenaltyBonus=0
    fShieldStaminaAbsorption=7
    bCanSprintAttack=false
    fStandingSpread=0.05f
    fCrouchingSpread=0.0f
    fWalkingSpread=0.1
    fSprintingSpread=0.25
    fFallingSpread=0.25
    fSpreadPenaltyPerSecond=0.5
    fSpreadRecoveryPerSecond=0.3

    [AOC.AOCFamilyInfo_ManAtArms]
    GroundSpeed=200
    AccelRate=700.0
    SprintAccelRate=100.0
    JumpZ=380.0
    SprintModifier=1.65
    SprintTime=10.0
    DodgeSpeed=400.0
    DodgeSpeedZ=200.0
    Health=100
    BACK_MODIFY=0.85
    STRAFE_MODIFY=0.9
    FORWARD_MODIFY=1.0
    CROUCH_MODIFY=0.65
    PercentDamageToTake=0.9
    MaxSprintSpeedTime=3
    bCanDodge=true
    iDodgeCost=15
    iKickCost=20
    fComboAggressionBonus=1.0
    fBackstabModifier=1.0
    iMissMeleeStrikePenalty=10
    iMissMeleeStrikePenaltyBonus=0
    fShieldStaminaAbsorption=6
    bCanSprintAttack=false
    fStandingSpread=0.05f
    fCrouchingSpread=0.0f
    fWalkingSpread=0.1
    fSprintingSpread=0.25
    fFallingSpread=0.25
    fSpreadPenaltyPerSecond=0.5
    fSpreadRecoveryPerSecond=0.3

    [AOC.AOCFamilyInfo_Vanguard]
    GroundSpeed=190
    AccelRate=500.0
    SprintAccelRate=100.0
    JumpZ=380.0
    SprintModifier=1.65
    SprintTime=10.0
    DodgeSpeed=400.0
    DodgeSpeedZ=200.0
    Health=100
    BACK_MODIFY=0.8
    STRAFE_MODIFY=0.85
    FORWARD_MODIFY=1.0
    CROUCH_MODIFY=0.65
    PercentDamageToTake=0.8
    MaxSprintSpeedTime=3.5
    bCanDodge=false
    iKickCost=25
    iDodgeCost=40
    fComboAggressionBonus=1.0
    fBackstabModifier=1.0
    iMissMeleeStrikePenalty=10
    iMissMeleeStrikePenaltyBonus=0
    fShieldStaminaAbsorption=6
    bCanSprintAttack=true
    fStandingSpread=0.05f
    fCrouchingSpread=0.0f
    fWalkingSpread=0.1
    fSprintingSpread=0.25
    fFallingSpread=0.25
    fSpreadPenaltyPerSecond=0.5
    fSpreadRecoveryPerSecond=0.3



  • Your responses to me when I pulled up stats during halberd discussions: http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=8665&start=40
    @Retsnom:

    While you can post all the weapon’s stats you want it still comes down to the player and how he uses the class.

    @Retsnom:

    Again the stats are just that, it doesn’t prove anything other than what they are set too. O.P. is a matter of opinion. Sorry but it still comes down to the skill of the player with any class, regardless of the stats.

    You should take your own advice.



  • ugh do I have to pull stats? They are the second fastest class in movement, their secondary weapons’ speed is fastest and obviously they have the best range, they can kill all the way across the map. So yes they are attacking faster, parrying faster and I do believe have the second fastest regen rate.

    Movement - if this is related to how fast they can run (in comparison to the other classes) then it isn’t of big importance as the chase mechanic allows you to catch anyone who’s trying to run away. While they can be moving a bit faster (forward) than knights and vangaurds their weapons are rather short. I also have heard they aren’t as mobile while strifing or moving backwards (can anyone confirm, the data seems to support my point but it’s quite hard to read for me)?

    Secondary weapons - their speed isn’t faster than many secondary weapons of other classes as I can see. No weapon can kill a knight or vanguard in less than three hits (I assume all classes have 100 base hitpoints). Archer can die in two hits top. You can win by trade-hitting alone.

    Parrying - there are no stats for parrying, I assume they are tied to weapons which means it’s not the archer, it’s his weapon you blame for being too fast in parrying. I don’t see why taking out a secondary weapon and feint is not an option? Or kicking him and taking advantage of this?

    Besides backstab bonus is complete bullshit. Why should they get a melee bonus? They shouldn’t they are a ranged class.

    It’s not a problem if you’re not trying to fight them with your back turned…?

    Archers are basically MAA without the dodge and a 1.5 backstab bonus.

    Well, that’s my point as well - the only reason the man at arms is so potent is his dodge ability, allowing him to dodge in or out. Strip that off and he dies easily in two hits. One, two mistakes and he’s done for. I don’t see the problem and I fight against archers a lot while not being an archer myself. I am not sure why you do.


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