Archer Melee



  • Most archers are stupid in melee some even turn and run.



  • @reQ.saintelliott:

    @Daiyuki:

    Their melee offensive ability is fine, but the defensive side should be about the blocker’s skill. I think archers should get an armor reduction without affecting their resistance to arrows, if that’s even possible.

    Would just make it more viable to flank and take out a nest of archers with weapons other than the Zwei or Maul, because as it is, it takes too long to kill even 2-3 archers, especially if the first guy turned to defend while the others didn’t notice. You can’t really take out the unsuspecting guys as you avoid the first one’s attacks because it will take you at least two swipes to get through ONE guy, sometimes three.

    MAAs flanking and finding a nice line of archers should be rewarded with clean one-shots since they are unaware, because as it is, it’s quite easy for the archers to take one hit, scatter and in no time have reinforcements on the flanker and be back to peppering the front lines with arrows.

    If an archer has their bow out and you hit them with a melee attack there is absolutely ZERO reason you should not kill them, they are sitting ducks.

    The issue isn’t with killing AN archer, it’s flanking a line of archers and only being able to pick off one guy. Even with a headshot, they take two swipes of anything an MAA has to offer, so if the archers are in any way competent (hence the need to flank them in the first place), you’ll get one guy if you flanked really well, or you’ll get a duel with an archer if one spotted you while flanking.

    What I’m saying is that it’d be nice to have a way to one-shot these unsuspecting archers without needing a huge two-handed weapon, since they’re unsuspecting and are supposed to be fragile. The other archers can often just start running while I’m cutting one guy up and the flank didn’t do much other than move them 15 feet away because by now I’m tied up in combat after running after one, either with the second archer who’s pulled a secondary or with reinforcements.

    If it was possible to one-shot headshot it would just be a lot more effective use of my time to flank around like that. Just seems like that time is better spent fighting at the objective than going around the edge of the map to net an archer kill. But Vanguard leaping at archers to cleave them is the tradeoff for not being able to have a shield? Just really annoys me sometimes as the “flanker” class that there’s so little reward.



  • I don’t think I’d perform half as well as an archer without the cudgel. The range and speed are tremendous and together with your movement speed it’s extremely easy to interrupt and punish slower enemies. The base damage is low, but since overhead headshots and combos are so easy to land and blunt damage performs great against most of your assailants it’s really not a problem. You can even get the backstab damage bonus if you manage to sneak an attack in behind the opponent.

    If archer melee is to be nerfed, the cudgel should get hit first. Tone down the range and speed to something more average, or reduce the damage to make it comparable to the saber and shortsword.



  • ^This. Cudgel is just ridiculous. Good reach, combos are almost unstopable, and with few overheads its just too easy to crush a knight.



  • @AwefulWaffle:

    So if Archers are allowed to outplay Vanguards, Knights (Kind of), and MaAs in melee, why are those classes not allowed to outplay us at range?

    This is the only coherent argument I see in this thread against archer melee capabilities. I don’t have much experience playing against the cudgel, though it never really pops up as an issue because archers die so ridiculously fast. Sure you can’t outplay an archer from range (clearly, because then it would just turn into an FPS game) but that’s how it should be. But if archers were so strong, why then would 5 archers vs 5 shielded knights always result in the latter winning (assuming equal skill)? Let’s assume a couple of arrows hit, unless they simultaneously take down 2 or 3 knights by footshots before they reach, there’s no way they would win. Try joining a duel server and use your dagger/cudgel exclusively to win. Unless your opponents are terrible there’s no way you will come out clean, unlike how you can with any other melee class. Also, what is the definition of “outplaying” someone? Hey sure, I can go play CS, pick up a magnum sniper and 1 hit you from maximum range. You come 10 feet from me and I can still 1 hit you by “outplaying” you. Does that make it broken? Does that make the shotguns underpowered because I wouldn’t be able to hit you from the same range? No, not really.

    It takes a lot of skill to outplay someone in melee range as an archer(talking about non-scrubs here). The problem in most scenarios is that good archers have plenty of opportunities to land shots before you even reach them. Also, most of the time people try to flank entire enemy lines and take on multiple archers and/or feel rushed to take out the archers, whilst the archers pace themselves well and don’t feel forced to engage in combat.

    Let’s be real here, any melee primary in the GAME can maximum 2 hit-combo an archer, and plenty of slower weapons 1-hit overhead. If you see an archer unaware and hit him before he draws his weapon, there is no conceivable way he should live, unless you pushed him back at max reach with a halberd and he runs and switches. Thus, catching archers unaware should and already do result in a confirmed kill.

    Comparing archers to MAA is ridiculous. There is a massive difference between the 2, and that of course is the ability to dodge. Dodging allows MAA’s to pseudo “counter” feints, which archers have absolutely no liberty of doing. Next time you have trouble with a spamming archer, just wait for him to finish jumping around like a headless chicken and feint his parry, 1-hit him in the face and you will stop crying about them. If they manage to facehug and backstab you when you have a weapon with massive reach, it’s your own fault for being bad.



  • @Mint:

    Try joining a duel server and use your dagger/cudgel exclusively to win. Unless your opponents are terrible there’s no way you will come out clean, unlike how you can with any other melee class.

    You REALLY SHOULD try this. It’s hilarious. I voted “It’s fine.” back when this topic was first made, but after playing with the Cudgel long enough, I really wish I could change my vote. Well, not really. I think the daggers are in a good place, but the Cudgel is just plain evil.



  • @Mint:

    Comparing archers to MAA is ridiculous. There is a massive difference between the 2, and that of course is the ability to dodge. Dodging allows MAA’s to pseudo “counter” feints, which archers have absolutely no liberty of doing. Next time you have trouble with a spamming archer, just wait for him to finish jumping around like a headless chicken and feint his parry, 1-hit him in the face and you will stop crying about them. If they manage to facehug and backstab you when you have a weapon with massive reach, it’s your own fault for being bad.

    It’s worth pointing out that the people who mention MaA don’t really compare them as much as treat an Archer like MaA in combat, which is valid and prudent. At least, the ones that I know of.

    They mention this because a lot of people underestimate Archers in melee, which is likely a large reason why this thread exists in the first place. If you approach an Archer like he was an MaA, you won’t make the mistake of underestimating him, and unless he’s a superior player than you or you’ve taken damage already, you’ll come out on top every time.

    That’s not to say the Archer is as powerful as the MaA. No, that’s not true at all. But some people think Archers should just instantly explode the moment you get into melee range, which would not be good for game balance, nor will it be happening anytime soon. So we’re trying to dispel that mentality, and encourage players to be a little more cautious about archers in melee combat.



  • I have to ask - is it me or with the latest patch archers are much harder to kill in melee than they used to be?



  • LOLS finally some people realizing that the archer is OP specially with cudgel. If you think that archers are that easy to kill, you havent played against some skilled archers. Come to the Kila server sometime when LJ is one and watch him devastate pretty much everyone with the cudgel.



  • Strong perhaps is a poorly chosen word. To me it’s more that they are too fast and unblockable.
    Not sure what’s changed, but usually I’m always on top of the list, and today I got my ass kicked by archers and MAA so bad I considered uninstalling the game… That’s just how frustrating it can get.
    Personally I only actually enjoy fighting knights and vanguards. Archers are just pesky cowards, and MAA annoying vultures. But hey, to each their own.



  • @dem0n:

    Strong perhaps is a poorly chosen word. To me it’s more that they are too fast and unblockable.
    Not sure what’s changed, but usually I’m always on top of the list, and today I got my ass kicked by archers and MAA so bad I considered uninstalling the game… That’s just how frustrating it can get.
    Personally I only actually enjoy fighting knights and vanguards. Archers are just pesky cowards, and MAA annoying vultures. But hey, to each their own.

    That is because they over nerfed the vanguards specially the halberd. They always do this.



  • That is because they over nerfed the vanguards specially the halberd.

    You mean the stab? That shows how the vanguards were relaying on its stab ability.

    LOLS finally some people realizing that the archer is OP specially with cudgel. If you think that archers are that easy to kill, you havent played against some skilled archers

    I only meant that they seem to block faster than before the patch, but that might be the effect of shield’s nerfs. I can still kill them if I start using the feint, something I didn’t do before. Often there is too little time to kill the archer without feinting and in TO games it’s important to deal with them ASAP.



  • I keep seeing people wanting the armour reduced on archers, this just doesn’t make sense, if and I stress if there is a balance issue, reducing the armour on a class that can be 1-2 shotted by most weapons isn’t going to change anything.

    Many talk about the long range of archers, like its some great gift from the gods of Chivalry. Here we sit miles away picking you off as you round the bend. This is so not the case, sure I can shoot an arrow half way across the map, that is one wasted arrow 24 to go.

    The effective range of the bows, is much much smaller than its max range. It does vary a bit depending on the movement of the battlfield, and particular location.

    On average to be effective you have to operate in a what i call the one-shot radius. In other words I get one shot, at a person who breaks from the group, before I have to switch to my melee weapon. The two-shot range is the outer most that I would ever try to enage a target, anything beyond that is more luck than anything else.

    Range is just a lowsy excuse for people wanting archers to fall to the wrath of their pinky.

    The reason archers can be so devistating at close range melee is not an issue of a broken class, but the way the mechanics of the game currently work, and people ability to use them to the best of their advantage.

    Now I am going to go brush up on my geometry and physics, so my arrows hit their targets; while you go figure out that the pointy end goes in the other guy.



  • My experience is exactly OP’s experience: You can go and duel a knight straight up on pubs and win without a scratch.
    What misses: You can’t go and duel a knight straight up on a scirm.

    The problem here is simply that rank 30+ tend to kill pub trash with anything they get their hands on. Those knights would have been beaten by fists, broaddagger, kickspamming and leading their own team to TK them. It’s not a matter of how strong the archer class is in melee, it’s just that this class is strong enough to not cripple a good player to newbe level, which is fine with me.
    We could talk about a nerf as soon as people start to choose archer over other classes in official matches for pure meleeplay, because they think it is the superior choice.

    PS. If you get to take advantage of your backstab bonus in a duel that server is either a laghell or your opponent should deinstall the game.



  • I sadly have to agree with OP. If I play archer, I am a heck of a lot more effective with a shortsword and stabbing knights to death in 3 hits than with a bow.

    Maybe removing the shortsword/saber/cudgel completely would do it from archer. Therefore the archer is left with only daggers and butter knives to actually make it hard to take advantage of that backstab bonus.



  • @ReMixx:

    I sadly have to agree with OP. If I play archer, I am a heck of a lot more effective with a shortsword and stabbing knights to death in 3 hits than with a bow.

    Maybe removing the shortsword/saber/cudgel completely would do it from archer. Therefore the archer is left with only daggers and butter knives to actually make it hard to take advantage of that backstab bonus.

    Remove one or the other then?
    Either get rid of the backstab bonus or remove shortsword/saber/cudgel from archer selection.



  • I voted that they’re fine, but after some more consideration and play, I’m not so sure. Namely, I feel that the archer side-arms are problematic for 2 reasons: they allow stalling, and they have a speed advantage over primary weapons. The first is annoying at least because if an archer’s team properly protects him, then it becomes almost impossible to kill them in time. The second is odd from a design perspective, since it doesn’t really make sense to give the fastest weapons in the game to a class that’s supposed to be weak in melee. I’m not going to conclusively claim that the speed is enough to overcome the general range and power disadvantage, I just think it would make more sense if their weapons had equal speed, and weaker range and power rather than higher speed compensated by almost exaggeratedly low damage and range, so that they have a straight disadvantage going into melee as opposed to having weapons powerful in niches.



  • I sadly have to agree with OP. If I play archer, I am a heck of a lot more effective with a shortsword and stabbing knights to death in 3 hits than with a bow.

    Indeed. I’ve found that my old tactic of moving backwards and attacking (leaving them open to my attack after they did theirs) is not working anymore. That’s probably because their weapons are faster and they move forward faster than I do move backwards. Aside from feinting (which is really effective) you can try COUNTER-attacking (after parry or block) from different angles (alt key). Kicking seems to be out of the question as it’s rather short and too slow, but they might not be expecting this. Problem is that archers might focus on parrying and then it’s pretty risky to find an opening. Another option is to hammer them to the death with heavier weapons to make them run out of stamina faster.



  • @Bulzeeb:

    if an archer’s team properly protects him, then it becomes almost impossible to kill them in time.

    What an odd thing to complain about. Why should one person be able to overcome a whole teams effort? You cannot go in and kill ANY class of the opposing team solo if they protect each other. This should especially be true for the archer class because it’s the whole point. A well protected archer might still die to other archers tho. And there is another tipp: You can send archer to hell with feints. Feints are their nemesis because 1/2 of all weapons can oneshot them, they tend to feel safe while surounded by friends as long as they manage to have their melee weapon ready fast enough to parry, and they usually wouldn’t imagine you have the time to feint… but a good player does. Not to mention they should have way less melee combatexperience.
    Try this: Vanguard + zweihander. Each time you close up to an archer, feint -> lookdown overhead -> free kill. Will work 95% of all times on pubs (5% misses, lag, random parry w/e). Will still work mostly in clanmatches, tho it depends on who you’re fighting I guess.



  • @Escadin:

    @Bulzeeb:

    if an archer’s team properly protects him, then it becomes almost impossible to kill them in time.

    What an odd thing to complain about. Why should one person be able to overcome a whole teams effort? You cannot go in and kill ANY class of the opposing team solo if they protect each other. This should especially be true for the archer class because it’s the whole point. A well protected archer might still die to other archers tho. And there is another tipp: You can send archer to hell with feints. Feints are their nemesis because 1/2 of all weapons can oneshot them, they tend to feel safe while surounded by friends as long as they manage to have their melee weapon ready fast enough to parry, and they usually wouldn’t imagine you have the time to feint… but a good player does. Not to mention they should have way less melee combatexperience.
    Try this: Vanguard + zweihander. Each time you close up to an archer, feint -> lookdown overhead -> free kill. Will work 95% of all times on pubs (5% misses, lag, random parry w/e). Will still work mostly in clanmatches, tho it depends on who you’re fighting I guess.

    I’m aware of that, and I thought of adding that caveat to my post. But in most class-based games, ranged squishy units are punished for being caught out of position, even by individual enemies. They don’t get to simply negate all of their enemies’ damage until their team comes to kill them. And any other class must be forced to expose themselves to enemy attack if they want to deal considerable damage. Even in organized play, where a team could theoretically work together to bring down an archer, I still can’t see them going down first. The fundamental problem behind archers having melee is that the class doesn’t even need melee to have inherent viability (though they would probably need a ranged damage buff as it is right now) since a combination of team protection and proper positioning allows them to provide value to their team without going into melee combat.

    Never did care for counter-arching (or really, countering any element you have a problem with the same element) as a solution to a lot of archers, but I suppose it’s an option. And I generally dislike relying on feints, though I guess I can make an exception for archers. As for the Zweihander, while I enjoy using it on occasion, I wouldn’t want to use it in most situations, and would not enjoy being “forced” into taking it in order to quickly kill archers. I do like the current smoke pot count, which allows me to disrupt multiple archers at once.

    Ultimately, despite my general annoyance with the tactic, I don’t think that melee should be removed from archers, as it would make playing an archer very unenjoyable, and worse, it would require that they be given stronger ranged capabilities to compensate. I’m fairly sure that they have lower stamina than other classes as well (not that that’s enough to prevent stalling in most cases). I simply find the situation very annoying, much like everything about archers.


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