Fun without Feinting



  • Sorry folks! The video is back up!

    Hi Everybody! I’m Dr.Nick. You may remember me from such films as “Dark Age Gaming NA Primitus Tournament Round 1” and Dark Age Gaming NA Primitus Tournament Round 2!" Anyways I’ve finally finished my first video on the controversial topic of feinting. I hope some of you will watch and enjoy. Be sure to view it in high resolution if you can.

    [youtubehd:20f9443y]T-fK9XGkGyE[/youtubehd:20f9443y]



  • I will probably get flak for this because it appears to be a minority view among the ~2-3% of the player base that actually consistently uses feints, but I remember when the game was in Alpha when feints didn’t exist at all and I loved at how much skill was involved in winning fights and the complete lack of this guessing game with feints, and footwork was a whole lot more important between 2 good players - moving in and out of range of your opponents attack and attacking them during their attack recoveries more, among everything you said in the video. I don’t remember the last time I ever delayed one of my attacks in a higher level fight, it’s all about look down crouching overheads and feints now. Still, at least feints have less use in 8v8 and higher Team Objective games, so that’s where I’m at now, and I leave the 5v5s and duels to the guys that love the feinting unless I really have to fill in for someone who can’t make it.



  • Yeah Martin I was surprised at first too when Radiant had me fighting more without feints. It was quite a shock as to how fast and intense the duels became :D



  • Very good video, very articulate support for your stance on feinting.



  • FYI your video is now set to private so nobody can see it.



  • Best moments of Chivalry i’ve had, was the knight broadsword fight we had without feints Blaine.



  • @Olovander:

    FYI your video is now set to private so nobody can see it.

    There was an issue with the encoding before so there were glitches in the video. He’s re-uploading the fixed one.



  • The problem is this style of gameplay will get boring fast. There’s nothing to get better at.

    ^

    Which is the Chivalry’s core problem when it comes to higher play even with feints in. Feinting is braindead and you really can’t “improve” at it.

    This forum community is a toxic circle jerk and nothing good will come out of it. I remember when we called for a kneejerk patching of combo feinting stabs…which actually was something you had to practice the timing of, and wasn’t proved unblockable.

    I still think Chiv is a fun game for mindless arcadey combat. A competitive game it is not. A hard game it is not. It’s a game with a very low skill cap and medium learning curve.



  • If games like Battlefield and Call of duty can be competitive, this game sure as hell can. Even if there is a skill ceiling, people will constantly push against it to be just that little bit better. It’s also not all about 1v1 combat, however much I love that.



  • FPSes take more skill than Chivalry at the moment. You have an illogical dislike for fpses, and although I do abhor Battlefield and Call of Duty. There WERE at a point in time highly skillful games like Quake and UT. That required more skills than just aiming, in fact Quake encompasses all the mental and physical facilities needed to excel at ANY game.

    Solo engagements in this game are boring/lacking.

    Teamplay in this game is boring/lacking.

    The amount of things you can get good at in this game not a lot.

    The amount of skillful inputs in this game that require practice = zero. However you do have a lot of people who cling to this game because they’re good at it. That’s how you gonna kill this game. The competitive scene for Chivalry is a joke…look at clans like KVII and Interitus. Tournament and League administration is awful, and leagues/tournaments barely exist for this game. I wonder why? Read below.

    This game is not designed to be a deep multiplayer experience, accept it as a game where you fuck around for a few minutes-hours a day not a game whose experience hinges on skilled combat. In regards to that TB has missed the mark by a far margin.

    Look at how many people like doing things like shieldwalls etc that’s the crowd that is playing this game. Not the competitive players who have long moved on. It’s in TB’s best interest to keep combat as is because that’s what retards like.

    I post here because I care about fixing Chivalry’s broken mechanics, and a lot of people are stunting this game and setting it up for failure in the long-run by preserving shitty mechanics because they’re good at the game. (so that makes it ok) Maybe it seems like I’m whining, I’m done being constructive on these forums. Everytime someone posts a good idea it’s swarmed by the same 5-10 retards that populate this forum 24/7. “HURP DURP FEINTING IS FINE” “HURP DURP LEARN TO PLAY” or on the contrary you have millions of topics with retarded ideas like “MORE DEATH ANIMATIONS” “FEMALE MODELS” “REALISM POST #1020202” that are praised.

    Been there done that(go look up my previous stance on feinting) I was actually saying the same things some of these kids are saying NOW. I have no more doubts that the system is broken now. This was 1-2 months ago and we’re still having this debate. hillarious.



  • MUSASHI, you could not be more wrong. Lol.



  • The video is back up! Very sorry about the delay guys and gals!

    Hi Everybody! I’m Dr.Nick. You may remember me from such films as “Dark Age Gaming NA Primitus Tournament Round 1” and Dark Age Gaming NA Primitus Tournament Round 2!" Anyways I’ve finally finished my first video on the controversial topic of feinting. I hope some of you will watch and enjoy. Be sure to view it in high resolution if you can.

    [youtubehd:2o89pmly]T-fK9XGkGyE[/youtubehd:2o89pmly]



  • While accepting much of what Musashi and Nick said about competitive play and mechanics, I strongly disagree with removing feints and relying solely on movement and timing. Why? OBVIOUSLY because of the bad netcode (it may not be badly written in itself, but the pings are generally enormous). Big pings mean that the hitboxes are far away from the models, making the range appreciation of weapons a guessing random rollercoaster luckfest based on what pings you or the enemy has.

    Take quake for example…I ping 35 to Germany, and that’s decent for competitive play. However, when I play Chivalry with 80-100 ping as seems to be the norm on all servers regardless of location, i get hit with short weapons from meters away, while at times models of long weapons go right through me, completely missing. Where is the skill in that?



  • Well that just has to do with netcode and lag and nothing to do with the game design. Also how does that apply to feinting exactly?



  • @MUSASHI:

    I’m done being constructive on these forums.

    well
    that sounds like a quitter

    Anyways, the feinting is pretty much necessary in this game right now

    bare with me for a sec because I’m going off on a tangent
    you see how everyone is having such a big problem with shields right now? How it’s so easy to just turtle?
    because it is easy to turtle, and with a shield you don’t have to worry about feints getting in

    what the devs are doing right now in the beta is adding a longer stun time after you’re kicked with your shield up, so it’s possible to hit your opponent before he can put his shield up again
    @Martin:

    @BB:

    @Martin:

    Shields next patch will be dazed for far longer if you kick them while they are holding their shield up.

    Long enough for the kicker to get a hit in?

    Yes, that was supposed to be the point of kicks initially, to break a turtling shield user the same way feints can break non-shield users for faster kills.

    now while my stance on this is iffy at best, the core here is that turtling is bad, and should be discouraged

    the real problem here I’m getting at, is that if you take away feints, people will be able to turtle without a shield. And when I say turtle I mean play really defensively without trying to attack.
    It is not hard to parry, and playing defensively and trying to turtle makes parrying even easier

    feinting is necessary to keep players from turtling

    you’re right though, turtling won’t get them any kills, but then not all game modes are kill centered, and turtling is already a big problem for defending teams who just need to sit there and survive to win

    so yes overview time:
    Turtling is bad
    If feinting was removed turtling would be all the more prevalent without the need for a shield to turtle
    Feinting is required to prevent turtling

    @Dr.Nick:

    Yes those things are already in game and they are balanced maneuvers. By removing feints you would make people use them more because they wouldn’t be able to rely on their FOO strategy of feinting.

    yeah that’s exactly what I said, you’re forcing players to do that

    @Dr.Nick:

    and are surprisingly easy to get around if you’re only using a kite shield.

    are the hitboxes different for each shield?
    are the hitboxes different than a parry’s hitbox?
    like does a wall shield have a bigger area of blockage than a parry would?
    I’ve actually been wondering this

    @Dr.Nick:

    Not to mention the fact that people should not be FORCED to use shields to account for a broken mechanic.

    except people aren’t forced to use shields
    if people were forced to use shields…

    well everyone would use shields, and the Van class would be extinct

    so since everyone doesn’t use shields, and the Van class still exists, I’m gonna go ahead and say the feinting mechanic doesn’t force people to use shields

    are comp players forced to use shields?
    I’m just a pubby so I don’t know what they do
    do they all run shields?

    @Dr.Nick:

    Radiant has offered to duel anyone who thinks they can stop him from getting in close.

    lol nothanks, Vangaurd is not my forte
    I enjoy getting up close and personal

    @Dr.Nick:

    Doesn’t matter that much. All the other imbalanced still exist.

    I know, I was just saying
    people won’t be able to feint as much after the patch



  • Turtling is bad
    If feinting was removed turtling would be all the more prevalent without the need for a shield to turtle
    Feinting is required to prevent turtling

    Feints are not required to stop turtling players. There are still PLENTY of ways to get an opening on a player who hardly ever attacks.

    They are even making it hardly for players with shields next patch by increasing the stun after they’ve been kicked.

    are the hitboxes different for each shield?
    are the hitboxes different than a parry’s hitbox?
    like does a wall shield have a bigger area of blockage than a parry would?

    Yes, yes, and yes.

    except people aren’t forced to use shields
    if people were forced to use shields…

    well everyone would use shields, and the Van class would be extinct

    Just because a lot of people still use the billhook and fork it doesn’t make them any less underpowered.

    Most players don’t use feints that much and like using all kinds of weapons. Simply put, since most pubies and even fairly good players don’t abuse feints that much there is no need to use shields most of the time. The common meta game in public servers seems to be for most people to use vanguard and just go swing happy with their long reach. Most competitive players agreed in the beta forum that vanguard is underpowered (excluding the halberd).

    are comp players forced to use shields?
    I’m just a pubby so I don’t know what they do
    do they all run shields

    No most of the high tier players use feinting very liberally so they don’t need to use shields. When you are using a broken mechanic as much as your opponent you don’t really need to change it up to use shields.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    Feints are not required to stop turtling players. There are still PLENTY of ways to get an opening on a player who hardly ever attacks.

    nooo feints just about are necesary

    and you say plenty but you don’t list any
    but let me guess one, delaying your attack by moving the enemy to the left of your screen, which only works effectively with slow hitting weapons

    so yeah
    feinting is pretty necessary to prevent turtling

    @Dr.Nick:

    They are even making it hardly for players with shields next patch by increasing the stun after they’ve been kicked.

    yeah I know man I just said it, and gave you the quote of the Dev that said it

    @Dr.Nick:

    Yes, yes, and yes.

    cool
    good to know

    @Dr.Nick:

    since most pubies and even fairly good players don’t abuse feints that much there is no need to use shields most of the time.

    so not enough people use feints for anyone to care in pubs

    @Dr.Nick:

    No most of the high tier players use feinting very liberally so they don’t need to use shields. When you are using a broken mechanic as much as your opponent you don’t really need to change it up to use shields.

    and comp players don’t all require shields either

    so…
    who’s forced to use shields now?
    doesn’t seem like anybody sees feinting as broken or unfair or they’d be using shields
    do you run a shield all the time?



  • BB, how can you say feints are necessary? Did you not watch the video? You clearly see feints are not at all necessary.



  • @UnknownXV:

    BB, how can you say feints are necessary? Did you not watch the video? You clearly see feints are not at all necessary.

    feints are necessary for TURTLING
    of course neither of them are turtling, they want a clean, honorable duel

    and honestly for clean honorable duels, feints could, and maybe should be disabled

    but in-game on TO maps you don’t get honorable, you get GOTTA WIN, and people turtle. And the only way to counter someone turtling without a shield is to feint them

    and if they got a shield kick them, but that’s beside the point



  • If someone is turtling in a TO map without a a shield, they won’t last long at all. With a shield, stamina will eventually drain.

    I’ve never seen anyone that can turtle for very long against a decent player, or against multiple opponents (speaking of TO now)


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