Light spears (javelins)?



  • So, I’ve spent some time on the new patch and I must say, facing a javelineer in combat I was unpleasantly surprised. I understand the javelins probably needed a buff (even though I’ve seen people kick serious ass with it, but it was a hard weapon to master and generally the person doing well with the javelin could do better with a more capable class), but wow, that’s a serious buff right there. The speed with which an archer in front of me was able to wind up and throw the light spear was both faster than my man at arms one handed swing AND it killed me with one hit on the chest. Now I’ve yet to see the other two javelins in action, but the light spear now seems to be ridiculously quick, as in, with next to no windup, which makes it faster than any other archer weapon and it seems to do huge damage as well, killing man at arms on the chest and vanguards with headshots. Why was it made so absurdly powerful and what is the point to pick any other javelin now, if the light spear is both insanely fast, does huge damage and has more ammo? Is it just the melee? Although one questions why would you even need to melee if you can easily windup and throw with your opponent in melee range, before he can strike you down.



  • The problem is that we’re missing flinch in the aiming animations right now. I’ve managed to get hit so many times, then instantly let out a Javelin and killed whoever was attacking. I think there are better ways at fixing the Javelins, such as:

    • Remove the leap on throw, which results in some missed shots
    • 25% or so faster projectile speed
    • Slight range buff on the javelins (the faster projectile speed may or may not be enough)
    • Reduce the ‘dead time’ between throwing a Javelin and being able to perform another action
    • Slow down the idle > aim animation, it’s crazy fast right now
    • Remove the 50% backstab modifiers (so they apply to secondary archer weapons only), then buff the Javelins for melee so they are more viable as a Hybrid role
    • Add some more ammo to each Javelin type
    • General rebalance of Javelins so they make a little more sense, they (mostly) all 2 hit every class right now (and 1 hit HS) and feel overall the same. The short spears should ideally be fast and annoying, but require an extra HTK, whereas the Heavy Javelin is more ‘precise’ and deadly, with the normal Javs being a good middle ground.


  • @Martin:

    The problem is that we’re missing flinch in the aiming animations right now. I’ve managed to get hit so many times, then instantly let out a Javelin and killed whoever was attacking. I think there are better ways at fixing the Javelins, such as:

    • Remove the leap on throw, which results in some missed shots
    • 25% or so faster projectile speed
    • Slight range buff on the javelins (the faster projectile speed may or may not be enough)
    • Reduce the ‘dead time’ between throwing a Javelin and being able to perform another action
    • Slow down the idle > aim animation, it’s crazy fast right now
    • Remove the 50% backstab modifiers (so they apply to secondary archer weapons only), then buff the Javelins for melee so they are more viable as a Hybrid role
    • Add some more ammo to each Javelin type
    • General rebalance of Javelins so they make a little more sense, they (mostly) all 2 hit every class right now (and 1 hit HS) and feel overall the same. The short spears should ideally be fast and annoying, but require an extra HTK, whereas the Heavy Javelin is more ‘precise’ and deadly, with the normal Javs being a good middle ground.

    i agree with ur fix ideas.
    It’s Hybrid role is bad both melee&range ATM.

    Edit: on page 2



  • The heavy jav can’t headshot a knight. They seem to be immune to any jav headshot. They go to critical health kicking them kills them but still. All javs should headshot. Maybe a huge headshot bonus and balance it otherwise. Having an inch wide stick through your head. Your probably dead.

    The heavy have was and is very good in melee. Gets rid of those pesky MAA. If you hit him.



  • @Martin:

    The problem is that we’re missing flinch in the aiming animations right now. I’ve managed to get hit so many times, then instantly let out a Javelin and killed whoever was attacking. I think there are better ways at fixing the Javelins, such as:<…>

    Well, you nailed most of the problems, I have to add long recoil after hitting enemy block/parry or blocking yourself(it should be able to maintain constant flurry of attacks as I see it), ridiculously short reach and windup time seems longer than those of a vanguard 2h polearms(which are OP to even maa 1h weapons in that), which is quite stupid imo. Javelineers were potent skirmish light troops IRL, and they don’t look like one when they can’t manouver fast enough or act in situations mentioned above. Controls feel unresponsible and clunky, with jerky animations and not all so good hitreg it results in a mess. I hope you’ll make your beta to a good game someday.



  • How do you guys feel the javelins are compared to eachother?

    I have played countless hours with the pilum (heavy) since I simply love the aesthetics, but when I changed to the normal javelin for a few hours I noticed that it’s simply superior.
    Aside from a small increase in range it has nothing to be better at. The damage increase is almost negligible and it’s an inappropriate amount slower than the javelin.
    It’s actually a slightly longer but way slower version of the regular javelin and I feel it’s simply worse at its job than the javelin (I don’t play the shorts very much though). The javelin can put out powerful strikes as fast as the norse sword stab while the heavy feels almost as slow as the overhead stab of the spear (so actually the slow underhand stab), especially in the recovery phase.

    The throwing does seem balanced, shorter range but somewhat more powerful and it’s animation is almost the same.

    So am I wrong or is the normal javelin simply better overall than the heavy javelin?



  • Regarding the differences between the various javelin types; all the relevant game information can be found here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0Ami8d_HZmYHsdDRzc1Byb3ItVWNXSFR1SURHN29TZnc&toomany=true#gid=1.



  • But that document doesn’t have the windup/recovery times in it. So the damage difference is there, which is not that significant, only the maa requires one less stab) while it is a fair bit slower (which it doesn’t show).



  • @Nivve:

    But that document doesn’t have the windup/recovery times in it. So the damage difference is there, which is not that significant, only the maa requires one less stab) while it is a fair bit slower (which it doesn’t show).

    It does say, just at different places. You have to scroll down to find the reload times, which is 0.8 with short spear and 1 for javelin and heavy javelin.
    The windup is 0.3 for short spear, 0.4 for javelin and 0.5 for heavy javelin.



  • The columns for the javelins are clearly not filled in, so unless you take the throwing windup and you assume it’s the same for all the melee attacks as well as the throw, it is not in the document.
    The recovery times of the attacks of all other weapons are listed, but for the javelins it’s only the throw that has a speed listed.



  • Added Jav melee times.



  • @Martin:

    The problem is that we’re missing flinch in the aiming animations right now. I’ve managed to get hit so many times, then instantly let out a Javelin and killed whoever was attacking. I think there are better ways at fixing the Javelins, such as:

    • Remove the leap on throw, which results in some missed shots
    • 25% or so faster projectile speed
    • Slight range buff on the javelins (the faster projectile speed may or may not be enough)
    • Reduce the ‘dead time’ between throwing a Javelin and being able to perform another action
    • Slow down the idle > aim animation, it’s crazy fast right now
    • Remove the 50% backstab modifiers (so they apply to secondary archer weapons only), then buff the Javelins for melee so they are more viable as a Hybrid role
    • Add some more ammo to each Javelin type
    • General rebalance of Javelins so they make a little more sense, they (mostly) all 2 hit every class right now (and 1 hit HS) and feel overall the same. The short spears should ideally be fast and annoying, but require an extra HTK, whereas the Heavy Javelin is more ‘precise’ and deadly, with the normal Javs being a good middle ground.

    Terrible ideas. Please don’t listen to Martin.

    Leap on throw is part of the difficulty curve/charm, don’t touch.
    Projectile speed is fine.
    Melee range is fine.
    Reducing the dead time seems fair.
    Reducing idle to aim time also seems fair.
    Don’t remove the modifiers, or buff Javelins in melee. Javelin’s competence relies on backstabs, and that’s what it’s balanced around. They’re fine.
    For god’s sake man, DON’T INCREASE AMMO! Reduce it, and make all javelins retrievable.
    Your last point is whatever.

    I made a thread about this.



  • Good joke about killing a MAA in one hit with Light Spear. You can’t even kill archer in one hit. I just landed what I observed was a head-shot and not even that did it.

    Light spear is garbage only because of the number of weapons that casually kill archer in 1 hit. As fast as the weapon is, I often hit an archer who then kills me with his crossbow. This is actually my only complaint with javlins overall. If Javlin archers had MAA hp, then Javlins would be a lot more fun to use.



  • @skies:

    Good joke about killing a MAA in one hit with Light Spear. You can’t even kill archer in one hit. I just landed what I observed was a head-shot and not even that did it.

    Light spear is garbage only because of the number of weapons that casually kill archer in 1 hit. As fast as the weapon is, I often hit an archer who then kills me with his crossbow. This is actually my only complaint with javlins overall. If Javlin archers had MAA hp, then Javlins would be a lot more fun to use.

    Normal Javelins are the most efficient, jack of all trades (one shots archer on chest). The Heavy Javelin is designed seemingly with one hitting MAA as its only feature, which I think is a bit silly, but there you have it. The Short Spear however, gets more ammo, is faster to throw, and 2 shots VG and knights. It still head shots Archers, MAA and Vanguard, but it’s the 2 shot that sells them. The sacrifice is not one hit killing archers, and a bit less of support damage for allies.

    That’s what I interpret anyway.

    Damage charts in-case you still think they don’t head shot
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1



  • Devs really had a field day with those javelins. It wasn’t until today that I’ve seen archers actually use them and flick their 100 damage spears around as if they were throwing knives. The throws seem to be faster than the stabs and archers don’t even have the decency to stop throwing anymore once you close the distance because being closer just means they can hit you more easily and completely devoid of risk faster than any melee weapon can wind up. Shields can keep you safe, that is until you’re close enough for them to special-daze and headshot you.

    @Martin:

    • Remove the 50% backstab modifiers (so they apply to secondary archer weapons only), then buff the Javelins for melee so they are more viable as a Hybrid role

    Let’s keep hybrids versatile but weak, please.



  • Terrible ideas. Please don’t listen to Martin.

    Leap on throw is part of the difficulty curve/charm, don’t touch.
    Projectile speed is fine.
    Melee range is fine.
    Reducing the dead time seems fair.
    Reducing idle to aim time also seems fair.
    Don’t remove the modifiers, or buff Javelins in melee. Javelin’s competence relies on backstabs, and that’s what it’s balanced around. They’re fine.
    For god’s sake man, DON’T INCREASE AMMO! Reduce it, and make all javelins retrievable.
    Your last point is whatever.

    I made a thread about this.

    I take it you’ve never played AoC. The Javelineer was FAR better implemented there. It had 8 Javelins, could throw them fairly quickly, and at a much longer range than Chiv’s Jav and it could actually hold its own in melee a lot more (because it wasn’t limited by backstabbing). It was one of the most balanced classes, and a lot more fun to play.

    Also, the Javelin’s competence in competitive play does not rely on backstabs at all, it’s as much as a front facing class than any melee class; I have no idea where you’ve got that idea from.

    @skies:

    Good joke about killing a MAA in one hit with Light Spear. You can’t even kill archer in one hit. I just landed what I observed was a head-shot and not even that did it.

    I just want to add the Short spear even 1 hit kills Vanguards, as per this damage which I created:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1



  • Thanks for the addition of the javelin speeds, makes comparison much easier.
    If these numbers are right then it must probably be something psychological that I feel the heavy is much slower in melee than the jav…



  • After a few more days of playing javeliner.

    I feel like i need to take back what i said.
    I’m pretty good with throwing javs/timing jav throws, owning the battlefield now with javs.
    My loadout seems to be working really good for me+my mindset.

    Honestly i dont know now… :|
    does it need fixing or not? IDK



  • @Martin:

    Terrible ideas. Please don’t listen to Martin.

    Leap on throw is part of the difficulty curve/charm, don’t touch.
    Projectile speed is fine.
    Melee range is fine.
    Reducing the dead time seems fair.
    Reducing idle to aim time also seems fair.
    Don’t remove the modifiers, or buff Javelins in melee. Javelin’s competence relies on backstabs, and that’s what it’s balanced around. They’re fine.
    For god’s sake man, DON’T INCREASE AMMO! Reduce it, and make all javelins retrievable.
    Your last point is whatever.

    I made a thread about this.

    I take it you’ve never played AoC. The Javelineer was FAR better implemented there. It had 8 Javelins, could throw them fairly quickly, and at a much longer range than Chiv’s Jav and it could actually hold its own in melee a lot more (because it wasn’t limited by backstabbing). It was one of the most balanced classes, and a lot more fun to play.

    Also, the Javelin’s competence in competitive play does not rely on backstabs at all, it’s as much as a front facing class than any melee class; I have no idea where you’ve got that idea from.

    @skies:

    Good joke about killing a MAA in one hit with Light Spear. You can’t even kill archer in one hit. I just landed what I observed was a head-shot and not even that did it.

    I just want to add the Short spear even 1 hit kills Vanguards, as per this damage which I created:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … TZnc#gid=1

    No I haven’t played AoC. I played the Javelineer before TB broke them.
    When I say they rely on backstabs, come on, shield slam into backstab, flanking, ducking/dodging stabbing their exposed back, and blinding a shield user, feinting, then sneaking his back. Rogue tactics. I remember back when I appreciated their balance, hooking my stab and back stabbing often. They’re the only Archer who made use of their talent properly, and I had FUN with it.
    I like to think 7 Javelins as ammo being illogical, and the spare Javelins are in his shield hand, so I’d rather not go back to the old Jav’s.


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