Why doesnt any game do shields properly?



  • Im sure this has been posted on this forum at some point.

    7-Ms9RMH7IA



  • I’ve never seen that particular video on this forum or elsewhere. Very informative.



  • I take it the question as in how the video was related to CMW implementation of shields was edited away.



  • Better to sacrifice realism than gameplay, how would you implement this? When you overhead the sword gets suck for a second on the shield? I don’t see it happening.



  • No not get stuck. You attack with a shield and a sword at the same time but in every game its one or the other. There was a style of Chiv play prior to this patch that succeeded, but took timing and work…lots of it. Now shields are clumsy and delayed, its hard to properly counterattack let alone attack at the same time is was done.

    A 2 hand sword or a sword and shield same time, whats the difference? Everyone complains when you can use a shield and attack quickly…but that is how it is. Turtling becomes a problem for sure. Perhaps active turtling should drain more stamina, but the shield have a passive melee effect, and for SURE a one hander should be able to immediately counterattack, if not at the same time for gameplay reasons.

    Point is pre patch it was doable with work and effort, now its about impossible. When I block a strike, the enemy can already be parry ready before I can attack.

    Interrupts are exaggerated grossly in many circumstances, but that’s a whole different topic.



  • Cool video. But I don’t think something like this should be/could be easily implemented. We already have shield bash.

    But on a different point, I do think you should be able to swing from behind shields. At least with the small shield and possibly the heater shield, the other shields are too bulky and realistically you would have to move them aside to swing your weapon anyways. Warriors didn’t drop their shields to their sides to get a swing in, that would be a pretty dumb idea on the battlefield.

    What my idea was, is for this to be properly applied, you would have to allow hits to the legs under the small shield/heater shield, which is not currently possible. This would only do partial damage since obviously it’s a leg shot, and people eventually would learn to crouch block or jump to defend themselves.

    This swinging from behind shields could be pretty easily implemented with just the swings we have right now.

    • A slash from the right to the left could bring the shield over the weapon and to the right side near the shoulder to block overhands from your opponent, and vice versa with the left slash.
    • An overhand from the right could bring the shield under the weapon and to the right, near the abdomen, to block a swing from the right, and vice versa for an overhand from the left.
    • A stab would just move the shield slightly to the left.

    The controls could be kept the same, all you would need to do is hold right click and attack as normal with clicks or wheel scrolls.

    To balance this, these attacks could take more stamina than normal, and as I said before, allow hits to be registered when attacking under a shield. This would allow for more exciting shield combat, as opposed to block, swing, block, etc, in my opinion.



  • You guys are missing my point. Shields are difficult to counterattack from now, and reality is that the shield and weapon were used at the same time. It wasnt a hollywood ‘you hit my shield ill hit yours’ back and forth thing.

    That is all. The warriors shield was the main attack and the sword or other weapon is what exploited and ended the fight.

    Now the shield/interrupt/block-attack delay has forced total turtling or use 2 hand weapons.

    This is a issue of of shield mechanics and interrupt routines, which are insane at the moment. Daggers blocking and interrupting hammers or even a longsword? So gamey.

    I have a new post started on battlefield roles, something this game got away from. Now everyone wants to do everything. Archers want to be able to stand until caught and then melee with knights. Its insanity. Know the battlefield role of your class and play accordingly. With the ridiculous interrupt mechanics daggers are like submachineguns of interrupt lol



  • There are countless revivals of traditional fighting styles however the implementation is nearly impossible to encompass all of these real techniques.

    I just can’t imagine being able to control a character who can fully utilize a shield and sword the way someone could in real life. And more to the point, why doesn’t any game do footwork, weapons, armor, etc properly?

    A hunting knife slash shouldn’t do any damage to the armor of a knight, a thrusting dagger should require aiming at the weakpoints, a single broadsword thrust to the throat should kill a MAA/Archer, none of our characters bleed, all of them regenerate health, etc.

    Things are given up for the sake of gameplay, if you want to go full viking on someone I’d suggest that huge reenactment that those swedes do.



  • Re: Why doesnt any **game **do shields properly?

    Aside from that point - Great video. I learned something new!



  • @Mike_Effing_Jones:

    And more to the point, why doesn’t any game do footwork, weapons, armor, etc properly?

    A hunting knife slash shouldn’t do any damage to the armor of a knight, a thrusting dagger should require aiming at the weakpoints, a single broadsword thrust to the throat should kill a MAA/Archer, none of our characters bleed, all of them regenerate health, etc.

    There is a game that does everything you just said, and it is called War of the Roses. It has totally realistic, time appropriate weapons and armor, made from proper materials, it requires you to aim at weakpoints in armor, characters can bleed out, and the only way to “heal” is to use bandages.

    It ended up being an incredibly boring turtlefest and the online community quickly died. Although that was also partly because the combat was ridiculously slow and floaty and it had the idiotic finishing move mechanic.

    Regardless, that game proved that completely realistic medieval combat games are not fun.



  • This is an amazing video, and while I don’t think shield mechanics need to be changed as they are - the reason there are different shields and they are held different ways is specifically for situational and individualized use - I would also think this could be used to great effect for new weapons and shields, and it would fit very nicely in this game. Might be tricky to pull together, but it’d really add another interesting touch. Really great find, and I hope the devs take a look and consider the potential implications in it.



  • @Ushnor:

    Regardless, that game proved that completely realistic medieval combat games are not fun.

    I’m going to have to disagree with that. WotR had some good ideas but with poor execution. In my experience, aiming was much more difficult than it should have been, first person view should have been allowed, and it drove me insane how every swing is widely telegraphed before it’s thrown.



  • Havent read the other comments to know if someone mentioned it allready, but:

    Shown in the clip is a theory ( but seems legit to me) about EARLY middle age shields. Most of the weapons and shields given in Chivalry werent used before the HIGH- or even LATE middle age.

    All the shields in Chivalry (except the buckler) have the “straps” he mentionend in the clip which the viking shield did not have. So the fightin style with the heater shield for example is a lot different - not quite but morr the way its ingame.



  • @NIB:

    Havent read the other comments to know if someone mentioned it allready, but:

    Shown in the clip is a theory ( but seems legit to me) about EARLY middle age shields. Most of the weapons and shields given in Chivalry werent used before the HIGH- or even LATE middle age.

    All the shields in Chivalry (except the buckler) have the “straps” he mentionend in the clip which the viking shield did not have. So the fightin style with the heater shield for example is a lot different - not quite but morr the way its ingame.

    Missing the point. It isnt about using the shield in this specific manner but that a shield and 1 hand weapon are used simultaneously, not Block…wait for delay…the attack.

    Chiv used to be doable that way, barely, but not there is a delay, intentional or not i do not know. You block a stike and by the time you attack with longsword (which is not any less wield able than a falchion in reality) the 2 hand polearm (or whatever 2 hand weapon you like) guy is already able to parry.



  • @Warhawk66:

    Missing the point. It isnt about using the shield in this specific manner but that a shield and 1 hand weapon are used simultaneously, not Block…wait for delay…the attack.

    Chiv used to be doable that way, barely, but not there is a delay, intentional or not i do not know. You block a stike and by the time you attack with longsword (which is not any less wield able than a falchion in reality) the 2 hand polearm (or whatever 2 hand weapon you like) guy is already able to parry.

    You should have picked another clip then ;)

    And yes, you are right: in real life you would/could block and strike simultaneously.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQ90qHjH8Y

    This is how they most likely fought back in the medival. It might look like random hit exchanging, but this guy is on of the best in germany. Fighting like this would be no fun at all in a videogame. If it even would be possible to make it a videogame. To simulate this one would need to have his full keyboard asigned with different ways to strike, not just 3.

    I think i get your point now, but i guess the way shields work in chivalry is just fine. I have no idea how you could make it any better.



  • @Warhawk66:

    No not get stuck. You attack with a shield and a sword at the same time but in every game its one or the other. There was a style of Chiv play prior to this patch that succeeded, but took timing and work…lots of it. Now shields are clumsy and delayed, its hard to properly counterattack let alone attack at the same time is was done.

    A 2 hand sword or a sword and shield same time, whats the difference? Everyone complains when you can use a shield and attack quickly…but that is how it is. Turtling becomes a problem for sure. Perhaps active turtling should drain more stamina, but the shield have a passive melee effect, and for SURE a one hander should be able to immediately counterattack, if not at the same time for gameplay reasons.

    Point is pre patch it was doable with work and effort, now its about impossible. When I block a strike, the enemy can already be parry ready before I can attack.

    Interrupts are exaggerated grossly in many circumstances, but that’s a whole different topic.

    Gameplay>realism always. When would not having a shield ever be better than taking a shield then? You’d never see MAA with knives or a Knight with throwing axes this way. In certain sword-styles, one can parry and attack in one move. This is obviously impossible to balance in a game, so Chiv doesn’t have that either.

    A skillful, entertainingly unpredictable game that makes you feel like you could have done something better to win, or makes you feel like you used superior movement, reflex, and timing to earn it when you do win instead of just the best loadout is much better than a realistic game that doesn’t involve those things. Real life isn’t balanced, which is why games need to take certain liberties when it comes to combat.



  • @Salad:

    …When would not having a shield ever be better than taking a shield then? You’d never see MAA with knives or a Knight with throwing axes this way.

    That would be bad how? Battlefield roles are non-existant. Everyone wants every class to do every thing.



  • @NIB:

    This is how they most likely fought back in the medival. It might look like random hit exchanging,

    Not quite. It’d be much more believable if they were grappling, stabbing, etc. It might be fun, and the guy might be good, but in the end, it’s a combat sport that’s not reminiscent of medieval martial arts.



  • Point is pre patch it was doable with work and effort, now its about impossible. When I block a strike, the enemy can already be parry ready before I can attack.

    Interrupts are exaggerated grossly in many circumstances, but that’s a whole different topic.

    I think they should implement the ability to “parry” with a shield. Meaning if you block an attack with the same timing, raising your shield at the last minute, you can still counter attack with it. If you are too early, it will work how it does now, a delayed attack. Just make the stamina cost for for turtling greatly increased.



  • @Janus3003:

    @NIB:

    This is how they most likely fought back in the medival. It might look like random hit exchanging,

    Not quite. It’d be much more believable if they were grappling, stabbing, etc. It might be fun, and the guy might be good, but in the end, it’s a combat sport that’s not reminiscent of medieval martial arts.

    Exactly….People in the medieval were not fighting like this. You forget that they were hundreds of them during battles. It wasn’t one on one. It was a team effort. And as Janus said, during one on one fights, they would be grappling each other, kicking each other, they would be fighting for their life.

    What you see here is nothing as it would happens in real life. Take exemple on Masters of Japanese weapons. when they fight, they dont fight to kill each other. and thus even they, cannot represent what it was like in a battle.

    You need to take into account that you may get kill from behind, this little dance they are doing would not stand on a battlefield. you absolutly need to rely on your brothers in arms.

    Reality is, we will never know how they fought. The best way to know would be to disarm the whole planet and to give soldier medieval weapon, let them fight it off for 50 years. And then people would most probably fight like they were in the medieval time. You would have a better idea.


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