Scam and witchhunt season open?



  • So from the steam moderator group sticky its clear now that the mods will be banning people with use of user submitted video and screenshot “evidence”. If that’s not stopped now it will be a sad end for chivalry as it has happened with other indie games with manual banning/reporting. Sooner or later there will be plenty of clans/ragekids who will abuse this by submitting fake evidence and getting anyone they wish banned (not to mention clueless admins and suspicion bans). I sincerely hope developers put an end to it before it begins, as did valve and other respectable companies who has experienced inevitable issues with such a system that I have noted above. What should be done instead is better integration of VAC at some point, right now cheaters are rare anyway.

    -KVII- Avallac.



  • Rest assured my young lad. All bans are only considered if it is viewed by a moderator! Which is why we made the steam group so we can join as it happens. If we just needed videos, we could use a forum reporting section for that.



  • Um? Any video/screenshot evidence can be faked, as I’ve mentioned, and some moderator’s opinion means nothing since they can and will be wrong. The only way to be sure with bans is anti-cheat detections. Period.



  • How can me joining a game be a video or faked…… Is this the matrix?

    AND FOR CLARIFICATION. We only ban obvious hackers. If it’s borderline or ANY doubt, we just put them on a watched list. We had to apply to be a mod for a reason. We aren’t just some loose cannon immature punks playing cops and robbers.



  • @ChuckingIt:

    How can me joining a game be a video or faked…… Is this the matrix?

    Are you saying that moderators will only ban those they see in real time when joining a game with a suspected cheater? Even if so, which from what I could see in the thread and in the steam group doesn’t seem to be all, define exactly what and to what extent will be considered cheating, and where the line between suspicion and a ban is.

    AND FOR CLARIFICATION. We only ban obvious hackers. If it’s borderline or ANY doubt, we just put them on a watched list. We had to apply to be a mod for a reason. We aren’t just some loose cannon immature punks playing cops and robbers.

    If some mod doesn’t have any doubt, doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be any. It’s all a matter of opinion. As I’ve experienced in other indie games, the heads will roll, legit and not.

    Also you can look into why for example valve has ceased all reporting/manual banning a long time ago.



  • I still find it absolutely bizarre that forum moderators are admins on the official servers. Sure, you had to apply, but having the skills and characteristics of a forum moderator doesn’t necessarily mean you have the experience with online games necessary to be an admin on official servers…



  • @Avallac:

    @ChuckingIt:

    How can me joining a game be a video or faked…… Is this the matrix?

    Are you saying that moderators will only ban those they see in real time when joining a game with a suspected cheater? Even if so, which from what I could see in the thread and in the steam group doesn’t seem to be all, define exactly what and to what extent will be considered cheating, and where the line between suspicion and a ban is.

    AND FOR CLARIFICATION. We only ban obvious hackers. If it’s borderline or ANY doubt, we just put them on a watched list. We had to apply to be a mod for a reason. We aren’t just some loose cannon immature punks playing cops and robbers.

    If some mod doesn’t have any doubt, doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be any. It’s all a matter of opinion. As I’ve experienced in other indie games, the heads will roll, legit and not.

    Also you can look into why for example valve has ceased all reporting/manual banning a long time ago.

    For reference. I have 4 people who I flagged as a hacker. All were moving twice as fast as everyone, all under level 6 with good ping. I have never flagged a level 45 who was kicking butt on a server just for being good. If the dude is swinging and running like he is on Bath Salts, then that’s clear cut. If he has the retsnom speed improvement bug, I don’t touch it! Nor will the other mods. We have automated tools that will go fully live soon after more testing to hopefully catch people who are using any kind of speed hack. For now we are getting the OBVIOUS ones, like people raining arrows from the sky. In 320+ hours of play, I know what an obvious hack is.



  • @Swayze’s:

    I still find it absolutely bizarre that forum moderators are admins on the official servers. Sure, you had to apply, but having the skills and characteristics of a forum moderator doesn’t necessarily mean you have the experience with online games necessary to be an admin on official servers…

    Most of us, including me have had years of being an Admin on servers in various games. Also most of us including me are programmers, as well as heavy chivalry players/testers. We aren’t random dudes/kimis who roam forums. Like I said we applied for the Whole Job, not just forum moderators.



  • @ChuckingIt:

    @Avallac:

    @ChuckingIt:

    How can me joining a game be a video or faked…… Is this the matrix?

    Are you saying that moderators will only ban those they see in real time when joining a game with a suspected cheater? Even if so, which from what I could see in the thread and in the steam group doesn’t seem to be all, define exactly what and to what extent will be considered cheating, and where the line between suspicion and a ban is.

    AND FOR CLARIFICATION. We only ban obvious hackers. If it’s borderline or ANY doubt, we just put them on a watched list. We had to apply to be a mod for a reason. We aren’t just some loose cannon immature punks playing cops and robbers.

    If some mod doesn’t have any doubt, doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be any. It’s all a matter of opinion. As I’ve experienced in other indie games, the heads will roll, legit and not.

    Also you can look into why for example valve has ceased all reporting/manual banning a long time ago.

    For reference. I have 4 people who I flagged as a hacker. All were moving twice as fast as everyone, all under level 6 with good ping. I have never flagged a level 45 who was kicking butt on a server just for being good. If the dude is swinging and running like he is on Bath Salts, then that’s clear cut. If he has the retsnom speed improvement bug, I don’t touch it! Nor will the other mods. We have automated tools that will go fully live soon after more testing to hopefully catch people who are using any kind of speed hack. For now we are getting the OBVIOUS ones, like people raining arrows from the sky. In 320+ hours of play, I know what an obvious hack is.

    I’ve heard that before in another game. Guess what happened to me and part of my never defeated #1 clan.



  • @ChuckingIt:

    @Swayze’s:

    I still find it absolutely bizarre that forum moderators are admins on the official servers. Sure, you had to apply, but having the skills and characteristics of a forum moderator doesn’t necessarily mean you have the experience with online games necessary to be an admin on official servers…

    Most of us, including me have had years of being an Admin on servers in various games. Also most of us including me are programmers, as well as heavy chivalry players/testers. We aren’t random dudes/kimis who roam forums. Like I said we applied for the Whole Job, not just forum moderators.

    The concept never works out. Valve and blizzard learned that a long time ago. Torn banner doesn’t have to do it all over again.



  • @Avallac:

    The concept never works out. Valve and blizzard learned that a long time ago. Torn banner doesn’t have to do it all over again.

    Questioning authority for the sake of argument.

    First world problems.



  • @Avallac:

    @ChuckingIt:

    @Swayze’s:

    I still find it absolutely bizarre that forum moderators are admins on the official servers. Sure, you had to apply, but having the skills and characteristics of a forum moderator doesn’t necessarily mean you have the experience with online games necessary to be an admin on official servers…

    Most of us, including me have had years of being an Admin on servers in various games. Also most of us including me are programmers, as well as heavy chivalry players/testers. We aren’t random dudes/kimis who roam forums. Like I said we applied for the Whole Job, not just forum moderators.

    The concept never works out. Valve and blizzard learned that a long time ago. Torn banner doesn’t have to do it all over again.

    Like I said automated tools are in the works. And you may have trouble distinguishing a person moving x2 the speed of people, but we do not. Nor do we have trouble seeing people using the dev tag to change the game speed of a server not belonging to them(this is no longer possible). That is what is people are getting banned for, not whatever you are paranoid about. If we have to look at someone for more than 5 seconds to see a hack, then its too close to call. That is what I am trying to get through to you.



  • Video editing tools can easily change the text of a name.

    I doubt the moderators fall for that but I am sure they would investigate said evidence.



  • @gregcau:

    Video editing tools can easily change the text of a name.

    I doubt the moderators fall for that but I am sure they would investigate said evidence.

    Again, we are not banning off of video or screenshots.



  • Really now, how many instances of “ZOMFG TARD ADMIN BANNED ME FROM OFFICIAL SERVAR!!11” have you seen around?

    Some people seem to think we run around banning people willy nilly on the slightest hearsay. I personally haven’t even touched the ban option yet, and only had to kick someone twice. Once for TK’ing me intentionally at spawn, and another for stupidly foul language / abuse, (and I don’t mean simply a poor choice of words). Both players were also allowed to immediately return and continue playing, as they had stopped their misconduct.

    Banning someone, especially permanently is a FINAL RESORT, not the first. (Unless we actually see the person clearly running round at lightspeed and spamming projectiles that block out the sun…). I’d personally wish to NEVER have to ban anyone, and like I said, I haven’t yet. Heck I’d even rather not KICK anyone either, I’m personally hoping Admins get a “slap” kind of function to use as “friendly encouragement” to stop anything stupid first.

    Video / Screenshot Evidence, along with SteamIDs simply helps us know WHO to watch, we don’t just twitch and flail uncontrollably at the ban button at the slightest accusation, or you’d have seen that already.

    Being an Admin requires good use of judgement, scrutiny and applying action in MODERATION where required, those skills apply equally to both the forums and in-game. Also note that we are all players just like you and everyone else, we’re just giving some of our own PERSONAL time for the game and the devs, to try and help keep everyone’s experience fun.

    Torn Banner ARE working on automated cheat detection, (and will likely roll that out slowly, to make sure innocents do not get caught in it), but they are also not Valve or Blizzard, nor could dream of having anything anywhere near their resources. Strange you used Blizzard as an example though, don’t they have an ENTIRE staffed Game Master department who have such a role?…



  • @Avallac:

    So from the steam moderator group sticky its clear now that the mods will be banning people with use of user submitted video and screenshot “evidence”. If that’s not stopped now it will be a sad end for chivalry as it has happened with other indie games with manual banning/reporting. Sooner or later there will be plenty of clans/ragekids who will abuse this by submitting fake evidence and getting anyone they wish banned (not to mention clueless admins and suspicion bans). I sincerely hope developers put an end to it before it begins, as did valve and other respectable companies who has experienced inevitable issues with such a system that I have noted above. What should be done instead is better integration of VAC at some point, right now cheaters are rare anyway.

    -KVII- Avallac.

    Witch Hunt meet Tin Foil Hat.



  • @Swayze’s:

    I still find it absolutely bizarre that forum moderators are admins on the official servers. Sure, you had to apply, but having the skills and characteristics of a forum moderator doesn’t necessarily mean you have the experience with online games necessary to be an admin on official servers…

    Bizarre?

    You mean you can’t understand how someone can know how to do more than one thing?

    What’s bizarre is how you’d think being a forum moderator was the only qualification required to be a server admin, especially after they said they first needed to apply…. which woould indicate that more was required.



  • @Cpt-Praxius:

    @Swayze’s Ghost:

    I still find it absolutely bizarre that forum moderators are admins on the official servers. Sure, you had to apply, but having the skills and characteristics of a forum moderator doesn’t necessarily mean you have the experience with online games necessary to be an admin on official servers…

    Bizarre?

    You mean you can’t understand how someone can know how to do more than one thing?

    What’s bizarre is how you’d think being a forum moderator was the only qualification required to be a server admin, especially after they said they first needed to apply…. which woould indicate that more was required.

    No, I mean it’s a conflict of interest and manually banning users usually ends poorly. Precedent has been established on this. Just above, Bob says he kicked users for “foul language”- whose judgment? Where is the rule against this? The potential for abuse is there and it almost certainly will occur.

    I read the application, btw. I would’ve done it if I had the time.



  • That was litterally using racism / swearing / abuse directly against other players with an intention to provoke, and a refusal to listen / stop until kicked.

    Certainly wouldn’t kick anyone just for letting off a bit of steam, nor have I any problem with swearing in general as long as it’s not directed AT anyone.

    Of course it’s down to each mod to judge, but that’s the point really, if we were crap at that, we wouldn’t be mods. Have had a few years previous experience of being Chief Admin of a massively popular teen forum (around 10 years ago now), I bet you can imagine what that was like heh. But yes I’d rather everyone just get along, it’s unfortunate that sometimes people force one’s hand if they’re out just to make others miserable. Like I said though even when I did have to boot those two people, they were allowed to come back and continue playing, as they’d stopped their harrassment of others.

    If any mod was abusing their powers, the devs would remove them. Pointless us doing this just to abuse it, we’re not really GETTING anything out of it, heck we’re losing personal time if anything, lots of it.

    I hope to never have to ban anyone. :)



  • @Swayze’s:

    No, I mean it’s a conflict of interest and manually banning users usually ends poorly. Precedent has been established on this. Just above, Bob says he kicked users for “foul language”- whose judgment? Where is the rule against this? The potential for abuse is there and it almost certainly will occur.

    I read the application, btw. I would’ve done it if I had the time.

    Ok, last I checked, they can only jump onto their own servers hosted by Torn Banner and since they OWN those servers, they can do whatever they please.

    Many servers are privately run and those paying for those servers can have whatever rules they want. Some have zero tolerance towards swearing or offending comments and will result in a kick or ban depending.

    Having servers owned and run by the developer of the game and them having a language rule isn’t truly surprising.

    It’s the same as these forums…. Forums are not a Democracy, they’re a dictatorship run by those who own, operate and are responsible for those forums. Those who run servers or forums can kick or ban people if they felt like it and with no justification. The fact that those who run or moderate forums or servers actually set out guidelines and follow a certain code shows that they’re actually decent.

    If it’s that much of an issue for you and think there’s a chance for abuse, then they can always just take down those servers so nobody can use them… then there’s no chance for abuse and nothing to complain about.

    Or you can just not play on them.

    If mod abuse existed and it was really bad on those servers, people would simply stop playing on them and they would be dead… that’s the power the players have. The fact that those servers are populated so much and enjoyed by many would show that they’re doing something right.


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