A Note To Torn Banner



  • Well, I really do understand the manpower at Torn Banner and I (having burnt 338 hours to chiv),
    respect you guys,

    Back then when there wasn’t this thing called “internet” in every home, games were polished and tested for really long time because you didnt have the chance to patch it day one or weeks to come or so frequently. Actually, the main reason wasn’t that, the main reason was the respect towards customers. Now all you do is, throw an idea, get some funds to hopefully get started, then release a game with full of flaws and bugs to get the money flowing. I do respect the guys at Torn Banner but this is just no go…

    Not being able to implement an average server browser with a clean interface for months is just… Before people get started on, “there may be bugs”, “they can’t test everything”, “they are a small team” etc. I am a computer engineer too and therefore I know the process it takes to come up with a good clean and fast solution to a problem, design or a bug. These are not excuses for not coming up with a proper solution to an existing major bug in your software.

    Every patch and every single patch you guys wrote server browser fixed etc. bla bla to the changelog, when it wasn’t fixed clearly. So you guys decided to LIE to us. No, you can’t say that we can’t debug it with millions of people, it only takes a few testers to spot that it isn’t refreshing consistent and displaying wrong information. I don’t buy that. That is no excuse for lying in the changelog or when you are MARKETING your new patch.

    And with the last patch… Yeah it seems a lot more consistent and but I wonder who came with the idea to have a 20 sec limit on refresh… So you guys really think the browser can find all servers on 20 seconds or is it to prevent another conflict? Whatever the reason is, It restarts everytime you refresh it so only I can see is maybe 20 servers. I just can’t understand what kind of a design choice is this? With the lag that new patch brang (a lot of people feel it this way, especially my clanmates and my pings are much higher on same server) you just can’t find a good server from that same first 20 servers. Most of them are very laggy. There is still the server full message without even trying to connect to the server. But if I try via console it connects… The stupid error output on when you join from steam etc… I really prefer the non fixed one if the only thing fixed is not loosing refresh ability after a few trials…

    Well the main thing is, I am sure you have the juice to fix a lot of things, but you are just choosing the path to $$. You could have really fixed a lot of things if you chose to polish the game and fix the bugs. Instead you chose to make a hefty content patch (which has a lot of new bugs inside it), which will sure bring in more customers (more $$), then just polishing and fixing the current content. That means you chose to ignore your current customer base and let them deal with bugs to make the cash flowing. This is just plain disrespectful. You may be an indie company but this behavior is not different from many triple AAA companys. I am sure MOST of the current player base would prefer a better and clean gameplay then some maps and weapons. But they don’t mean $$ to you I know it.

    I don’t mean to be offensive and if any of my above lines are wrong or incorrect, I would like to know the truth. Right now a lot of my friends started to get frustrated and loosing interest. Yeah I know we don’t mean $$ to you because we bought the game or we are just competitive gamers and we are minority. I actually hope that I am wrong on this, because competitive arena is a BIG marketing sector and increases the game’s lifespan for you guys if it becomes a successfull one, so get your strategy straight, even if you are after $$ in the long run. The decisions you make are short term paths leading to more money. And I really don’t buy that you are somehow low on funds by looking at your sales according to your team size too. Yeah you can milk a software thats not a crime but at least lets be honest here.

    Again, I respect you guys and don’t want to be destructive. But things are very clear… I may be a single customer of your software but i definately feel offended by all these choices for $$ because I really hoped you would behave different and passionately towards your game, unlike what sector giants are doing. If these choices were not INTENTIONALLY made for money, then all there is left is, core of the dev team are not proper computer engineers but just skilled day to day programmers that doesn’t know the importance of analyze, design and debug which is why the software sector got crumbled on 90s. Games are no different too and heading to the same direction.

    I didn’t mean to offend anyone, and I hope things to get better, best regards.

    RK | MarkedOne



  • While your article was a rather hefty piece of work, what I broiled it down to (what I assume you’re trying to come across with) is that there should have been more polish and the server browser needs a ton of work - and both of those should have come before content patch. If this is right, then continue on, if not, correct me.

    First off, you aren’t the player base. You can’t assume to know what the majority wants, likes or thinks about without extensive, unbiased polling. A lot of the things you mentioned don’t apply to me, yet I consider myself an average, enthusiastic Chivalry player.

    Next, the server browser, and what a monster it is. Many people have issues with it. Some people can’t see servers at all without voodoo tricks and fumbling with options that shouldn’t have any bearing, but somehow patch the issue anyways. I, personally, get to see almost every server at 1000-1600 ping, even if they are in the same city as me. So every time I go to play, it’s a real gamble whether I get in a server with acceptable ping. It’s not as bad as not seeing servers at all, or joining 23/24 servers only to find 4 people; but it’s certainly a thorn in my side. That aside, if you know anything about game engines, welcome to the Unreal 3 engine. And I cannot blame Torn Banner one lick for not being able to improve the muddlecluster that is Unreal’s server browser. I’ve seen the same thing in Killing Floor (Unreal 2.5), Red Orchestra 2 (Unreal 3) and many others. Without extensive knowledge, they’re not going to be able to revolutionize the nightmare of the server browser. I can’t blame them, it is an evil you have to abide with when you use Unreal as your game’s foundation.

    Finally, as for the content patch. I was ecstatic. I mainly play TO, and not the insanity of FFA or the sitting-out of LTS. This means I got one more map to plan on, rather than my original four. We got five new weapons along with it, some weapons got a much needed rebalance, and life moved on. Did the squash all of the previous bugs? No. Did they add a few? Yes. Am I still confused on the official status of whether or not certain tactics are exploits or fair game? Yeppers. Welcome to a small game company. I, in absolutely no way, saw the content update as a cash-grab. How could it be? The free-weekend did not mention “Huge Update Incoming!” Steam never notified me. The only reason I knew is because I followed the game. And the same people who were on the fence about the game, like many friends of mine, did absolutely not care that there was an update. If they wanted a cash-grab, that was a bad way to do it. They should just stick with EA tactics and introduce $5 map and reskin DLC. (Please, never do developers.) The game is in it’s infancy, and hasn’t even had an anniversary yet. It, in no way, is going to be free of bugs or have a nicely polished sheen for awhile. If they want to give out content updates along the road to that perfection, fine by me. If you can find me a AAA-Title game that was bug free in the first months, I will eat my own boots. :P



  • He never claimed to speak for the player base; don’t put words in his mouth to make him look bad. He brought up good points, especially the fact that they lied to us in the patch notes.



  • @Opening:

    So you guys decided to LIE to us.
    (a lot of people feel it this way…)
    I am sure MOST of the current player base would prefer a better and clean gameplay then some maps and weapons. But they don’t mean $$ to you I know it.

    Actually, he did. And he is constantly restating that the developers are money hungry and don’t care about individual opinions because they don’t mean money. He also implies that while they’re skilled, their programmers know nothing about debugging and then goes on to compare it to a partial software collapse in the 90s. This is a small game company, no more, no less. We don’t need grandeur comparisons to mask what we want to say.

    He can back it up by saying he doesn’t mean to be offensive, but it is. You can’t give an open-hand slap and then cover it with “I didn’t mean for it to hurt.” Instead of writing a page and a half, with careful tip-toeing and constant half-empathized notions of “Sorry” and “I don’t want to offend anyone” while indirectly insulting people - he could have just stated “The server browser’s bad, I felt like you lied by not explaining yourselves well enough in the patch notes, and I think the content update should have been second to actual polish and bug fixing.”



  • Apart from that one server browser bug - when servers didn’t show up, or only highpinged ones - I really havn’t noticed that many bugs. Oh yeah, there’s the one where you move in one direction, or get stuck in the floor, but that’s about it.
    Before the update I thought it was an awesome game, and I would have gladly paid a higher price for it :)



  • I agree the server browser drives me nuts, I still need more time to get a full measure of the bugs though.

    Adding min/max columns that dont work is just sloppy.

    At least they have fixed some of the annoying bugs like the shield being wrong when you are switched teams.

    They fixed the flinch issue which was major for competitive players.

    Now I have to go through my pet peeve list and start reviewing what I would like fixed for a bug list.

    As for motivations I think you are being very disingenuous, I believe their product already speaks for its self as they are just creating the best game they can, balancing content with bug fixes.

    Perhaps you want more bug fixes but lots of people want new maps and weapons too.



  • Honestly, I think it’s an Unreal thing. The other Unreal engine indie game I played a lot of (Killing Floor) also had a subpar server browser, that oftentimes after patches would stop showing servers at all. Many times it would seem like a firewall issue than eventually fix itself without actually changing any firewall settings!

    What I mean to say is, Torn Banner isn’t the only team to have used Unreal engine and released with a borked server browser, so perhaps the problem lies elsewhere.

    Also, what the guy above me said. Some players really love when a game frequently adds content to it’s game and varies the playing experience, some people like when a game instead keeps gameplay meta static and instead focuses on technical polish. Compare TF2 for the former and CS 1.6 for the latter. Personally, I’m more of the former, so I really liked the content update. I very much enjoy the novelty of new toys to play with. ;)



  • @Salad:

    Honestly, I think it’s an Unreal thing. The other Unreal engine indie game I played a lot of (Killing Floor) also had a subpar server browser, that oftentimes after patches would stop showing servers at all. Many times it would seem like a firewall issue than eventually fix itself without actually changing any firewall settings!

    But I dont think it is a firewall issue. I still have more testing to do but pre-patch if you selected a server and cancelled out of it it would not show the server list 99% of the time - you had to exit and restart the game.

    Stuff like that is just infuriating bugs.



  • Your concerns about the Server Browser are valid, however I’m a bit puzzled how you feel a free content update is cash grabbing…

    Many players have been asking for more maps, weapons and game modes for absolutely yonks, now they have them, plus some fixes to old bugs too. Now that is out of the way, Torn Banner will now be focusing primarily on bug fixing and community issues.

    They HAVE been testing appropriately, and have had mutiple public beta cycles that anyone can join. The problem is they do not have the data, experience and test labs that larger publishers have for testing, so something that LOOKS fine in beta, may not be so when it is pushed out Live and everyone around the world starts using it.



  • Thx for all the opinions.

    @Doom454:

    First off, you aren’t the player base. You can’t assume to know what the majority wants, likes or thinks about without extensive, unbiased polling. A lot of the things you mentioned don’t apply to me, yet I consider myself an average, enthusiastic Chivalry player.

    I don’t know where I said, “I am the player base”. I even told that I am a single customer and I may be the minority…
    But a question for you; do you prefer quantity over quality?
    Do you prefer a few more maps and weapons (which are introducing new bugs) over a better gameplay experience?

    @Doom454:

    Without extensive knowledge, they’re not going to be able to revolutionize the nightmare of the server browser. I can’t blame them, it is an evil you have to abide with when you use Unreal as your game’s foundation.

    Let’s “assume” that they can’t fix the server browser because UE 3. (By the way I play RO2 and the server browser is fine, I don’t know what you are talking about. Yes it was bugged at launch but they fixed it.) Anyways, Does that give them the right to lie and talk like they fixed the server browser in every changelog? What can I say anything about an honest, “Well in the mean time we are struggling to fix server browser issues.” But rather they decide to say “We fixed server browser”. In one changelog they even wrote “We built a brand new server browser.” Correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t it behaving exactly same like the older one? Only the UI changed a bit…

    @Doom454:

    I, in absolutely no way, saw the content update as a cash-grab. How could it be? The free-weekend did not mention “Huge Update Incoming!” Steam never notified me. The only reason I knew is because I followed the game. And the same people who were on the fence about the game, like many friends of mine, did absolutely not care that there was an update. If you can find me a AAA-Title game that was bug free in the first months, I will eat my own boots. :P

    Look mate, I am sorry that you can’t see the most common trick game sector uses here. It’s not about “they marketed the patch big time!”. It’s about mentality. If you were a game developer and you were trying to market a game, would you rather pick up the line
    “We have x many maps and x many maps, x many features” or “We provide a clean, bug-free gameplay.”
    Certainly the first one would get you better $$. In fact it is easier to do the first one… Why is it easy? Look at how they are struggling to fix existing problems and bugs without broking things. Each and every new thing they add, comes with new bugs. It is always easier to add new stuff then debugging and fixing the existing things except a few exceptions. It is a common rule in programming…

    @Doom454:

    If you can find me a AAA-Title game that was bug free in the first months, I will eat my own boots. :P

    I never expected a bug free game. That is an utopia. Try to understand me than criticizing me, it’s about mentality. They obviously chose the path to more content (which will get better sales because they contribute to their marketing) then fixing the major gameplay, browser or UI bugs. The latter one will only have an effect in the long run when people start to get frustrated. In the short term, you make more money. That’s how marketing works and I am sorry that it works in this way.

    @Doom454:

    Actually, he did. And he is constantly restating that the developers are money hungry and don’t care about individual opinions because they don’t mean money.

    Man… You don’t read with an honest judgement. I didn’t say they don’t care about individual opinions because they don’t mean money. I said they don’t really care and prioritize the existing customer base because they don’t mean money. I REALLY BELIEVE THAT OUR COMMUNITY PREFERS QUALITY OVER QUANTITY. GAMEPLAY OVER FEW MAPS AND WEAPONS. If I am wrong about this one, I can just shut up and get back to my basement.

    @Doom454:

    He also implies that while they’re skilled, their programmers know nothing about debugging and then goes on to compare it to a partial software collapse in the 90s. This is a small game company, no more, no less. We don’t need grandeur comparisons to mask what we want to say.

    Read this part again while thinking the difference between a programmer and a software engineer.
    … If these choices were not INTENTIONALLY made for money, then all there is left is, core of the dev team are not proper computer engineers but just skilled day to day programmers that doesn’t know the importance of analyze, design and debug which is why the software sector got crumbled on 90s. Games are no different too and heading to the same direction.

    I don’t mask anything. Instead I give an explicit example of what happens when you do not give the necessary importance to analyze, design and debugging. In the long run you collapse. Game sector is a software sector too and it is going on the same path.

    And please for god sakes, don’t put up the argument that this is a small game company. This is not an excuse to add buggy new content or not fix the existing feature that YOU WROTE. I am not expecting it to have x number of feature or tesselation or advanced physic calculations etc. I am just saying to “fix the things you add to the game”. And they just chose to add new buggy content WHILE INTRODUCING NEW BUGS. They are a small team is not an excuse for these.

    @Doom454:

    He can back it up by saying he doesn’t mean to be offensive, but it is. You can’t give an open-hand slap and then cover it with “I didn’t mean for it to hurt.” Instead of writing a page and a half, with careful tip-toeing and constant half-empathized notions of “Sorry” and “I don’t want to offend anyone” while indirectly insulting people

    Again where did I insult anybody? SHOW ME. Yes, I critisized. But insult? It seems like you are the one offended somehow and I don’t know why that is.

    Please try to read this as inbiased as BobT36.

    @BobT36:

    however I’m a bit puzzled how you feel a free content update is cash grabbing…

    Well I think I wrote a lot on how that is for $$. You and both know that the team could as well use that manpower to fix the game. Look, I am used to these marketing tricks. I am not against new content but I find this mentality deluding for community.
    2 decisions:
    -Fix the existing game (harder, a happier current costumer base = no $$ in the short run)
    -Add new BUGGY content (easier, more new customers = more $$ in the short run)
    I don’t care that you put a 5$ price tag or not. I am after the mentality here.
    You can market the game as well by letting people freely play, just like introducing new people the game with free weekends. (I am not against this don’t get me wrong and find it bad in anyway) All I am saying is there was a decision and you took what the other cash grabber giant companys took.

    @BobT36:

    Many players have been asking for more maps, weapons and game modes for absolutely yonks, now they have them, plus some fixes to old bugs too.

    Again, I think people are after quality rather then quantity. If you think that I am wrong about this because SOME people cried for new content, **I think you can check the thread counts between gameplay vs content…
    **

    All I say is the team went after the easier route which leads to more $ and I am dissapointed about that.

    @BobT36:

    They HAVE been testing appropriately, and have had mutiple public beta cycles that anyone can join. The problem is they do not have the data, experience and test labs that larger publishers have for testing, so something that LOOKS fine in beta, may not be so when it is pushed out Live and everyone around the world starts using it.

    If you don’t have that kind of testing power why not try to fix thing up rather than introduce new bugs to an already buggy existing game? There are hundreds of posts wanting to fix some major issues and you guys chose listen to the ones wanting more content with your present computing power. (which are much more less if you just check out the number of posts) Why? because it is easier and you get more $$. This is not what a passionate indie game company does unless they want to get the best cash out of the game like AAA companys.



  • @MarkedOne:

    Back then when there wasn’t this thing called “internet” in every home, games were polished and tested for really long time because you didnt have the chance to patch it day one or weeks to come or so frequently. Actually, the main reason wasn’t that, the main reason was the respect towards customers. Now all you do is, throw an idea, get some funds to hopefully get started, then release a game with full of flaws and bugs to get the money flowing. I do respect the guys at Torn Banner but this is just no go…

    Actually there’s a hell of a lot more to it than that.

    Back before the Internet came around, they didn’t spend as much time perfecting games and programs as they do today because back before the internet came along, you had only 2-3 PC models to test on…… 286’s, 386’s and 486’s, etc.

    It was much easier to test games on three systems, compared to today where you have countless PC systems, with multiple brands & makes of Motherboards, CPU’s, RAM, Hard Drives, Sound, Internet Connections, and so on.

    No game developer in the world can afford to have every PC build that there can be to test on, let alone the space & power for such a feat.

    Developers like Valve, EA, Activision and UbiSoft, are big game developers with lots of resources, money and man power, yet even their games are released with bugs and glitches because what you seem to think should happen is an impossibility today.

    Activision has been around since 1979, EA since 1982… they know how to make video games because they’ve been doing it longer than any other developers out there today.

    Yet their big staple games, Battlefield and Call of Duty, are continually released with bugs and they still end up having to put out more than one patch to fix everything… most of the time they never fix everything in the first place before they move onto their next game.

    If you think Game Developers should hang onto a game until every single bug and glitch is fixed, then you have no idea of what you’re talking about because it’s impossible… not just because of what I said above about countless PC spec combinations, but also because developers need money to pay their employees.

    They can’t fix everything wrong with their games simply because they don’t know most of those issues exist yet… because they don’t have every system out there.

    My game runs just fine, but it may not for you and others because of your system’s setup. You report the bug in question, they find it and fix it for most, yet it still doesn’t work for you… over time, they can better narrow down what’s specifically wrong for you and fix it.

    That’s how it actually works.

    Not being able to implement an average server browser with a clean interface for months is just… Before people get started on, “there may be bugs”, “they can’t test everything”, “they are a small team” etc. I am a computer engineer too and therefore I know the process it takes to come up with a good clean and fast solution to a problem, design or a bug. These are not excuses for not coming up with a proper solution to an existing major bug in your software.

    A Computer Engineer is not the same department as a Game Developer.

    I’m a Graphic Designer, Animator, 3D Modeler, Photographer & Editor…… want me to unzip and flop it out to measure up too?

    Just because you know how to use a computer for one thing, that doesn’t make you an expert on everything else.

    Every patch and every single patch you guys wrote server browser fixed etc. bla bla to the changelog, when it wasn’t fixed clearly. So you guys decided to LIE to us. No, you can’t say that we can’t debug it with millions of people, it only takes a few testers to spot that it isn’t refreshing consistent and displaying wrong information. I don’t buy that. That is no excuse for lying in the changelog or when you are MARKETING your new patch.

    Browser works fine for me…. it’s been working fine for me before the patch. Maybe there’s something wrong with your computer’s setup, Mr. Engineer.

    Answer me this Genius… did you report the bug to the devs, provided them with details on what is happening and provide your system’s specs to help them narrow it down?

    No?

    Then don’t be surprised that they didn’t narrow down the issues you are having because they can’t read your fk’n mind.

    And with the last patch… Yeah it seems a lot more consistent and but I wonder who came with the idea to have a 20 sec limit on refresh… So you guys really think the browser can find all servers on 20 seconds or is it to prevent another conflict?

    Does it need to be more than 20 seconds?

    I have a long list of servers to choose from within 3 seconds tops, I sort them by ping, pick the one I want and I’m playing before the 20 second refresh would be completed. The thing I noticed is that the longer it takes for the remaining servers to pop up, the higher their pings are, thus I wouldn’t play on them anyways.

    Whatever the reason is, It restarts everytime you refresh it so only I can see is maybe 20 servers.

    That’s what “REFRESH” does…… it refreshes your list, clearing the old list.

    Only 20 servers? I get a hell of a lot more than that, all in that 3 seconds I mentioned earlier.

    I just can’t understand what kind of a design choice is this? With the lag that new patch brang (a lot of people feel it this way, especially my clanmates and my pings are much higher on same server) you just can’t find a good server from that same first 20 servers. Most of them are very laggy.

    Again, the game works just fine for me. Your experience is not everybody’s experience. Lag is not as bad as it used to be.

    I can find a good couple of dozen servers here in Australia all under 100 ping.

    There is still the server full message without even trying to connect to the server. But if I try via console it connects… The stupid error output on when you join from steam etc… I really prefer the non fixed one if the only thing fixed is not loosing refresh ability after a few trials…

    Well the main thing is, I am sure you have the juice to fix a lot of things, but you are just choosing the path to $$. You could have really fixed a lot of things if you chose to polish the game and fix the bugs. Instead you chose to make a hefty content patch (which has a lot of new bugs inside it), which will sure bring in more customers (more $$), then just polishing and fixing the current content. That means you chose to ignore your current customer base and let them deal with bugs to make the cash flowing. This is just plain disrespectful. You may be an indie company but this behavior is not different from many triple AAA companys. I am sure MOST of the current player base would prefer a better and clean gameplay then some maps and weapons. But they don’t mean $$ to you I know it.

    Man you really have no idea what you’re talking about…. They just went for the money and didn’t bother to fix as many of the existing bugs & only create more?

    Do you work there? Can you read their minds??

    You talk about AAA companies, yet again… show me one of these AAA Companies that have actually released a flawless game with no bugs or performance issues from day one… NAME ME ONE!

    Name me one of these companies that don’t gouge their customers with paid DLC’s and paid maps or weapons…… Come on, show me one Triple A Company that doesn’t do this.

    The thing is, Torn Banner added all of these maps, game modes and weapons for free (plus fixes & polish)… after people already paid a discount on the game during the Christmas Sales and the Free Weekend.

    But yeah, you must be right… Money is more important… the proof is all there obviously.

    Oh but at the same time, here’s a newsflash: They’re a Business, the Gaming Industry is a Business and game developers are in the BUSINESS to make MONEY. They have to pay their bills and provide for their families too… and that’s more important than constantly catering to faceless know it alls on the internet for free.

    But they and many other game developers do cater to people like you anyways… they provide free support, free fixes and free content, while other bigger companies who have oodles of money will release a weapon, or one map or some character model for more money.

    They’ll put out one… maybe two bug patches, then they’re off to roll out the next game even if there are still bugs and glitches in the old game. (BFBC2 as one example)… and their next game is just the same game as before, but with more bloom and contrast.

    I don’t mean to be offensive and if any of my above lines are wrong or incorrect, I would like to know the truth. Right now a lot of my friends started to get frustrated and loosing interest. Yeah I know we don’t mean $$ to you because we bought the game or we are just competitive gamers and we are minority. I actually hope that I am wrong on this, because competitive arena is a BIG marketing sector and increases the game’s lifespan for you guys if it becomes a successfull one, so get your strategy straight, even if you are after $$ in the long run. The decisions you make are short term paths leading to more money. And I really don’t buy that you are somehow low on funds by looking at your sales according to your team size too. Yeah you can milk a software thats not a crime but at least lets be honest here.

    Again, I respect you guys and don’t want to be destructive. But things are very clear… I may be a single customer of your software but i definately feel offended by all these choices for $$ because I really hoped you would behave different and passionately towards your game, unlike what sector giants are doing. If these choices were not INTENTIONALLY made for money, then all there is left is, core of the dev team are not proper computer engineers but just skilled day to day programmers that doesn’t know the importance of analyze, design and debug which is why the software sector got crumbled on 90s. Games are no different too and heading to the same direction.

    I didn’t mean to offend anyone, and I hope things to get better, best regards.

    RK | MarkedOne

    For a so-called Computer Engineer, you have some horrible spelling and grammar.

    What have we all learned from this post?

    Computer Engineers are not Automatically Experts on the Gaming Industry.

    What else have we learned??

    That Chivalry is a very popular game played by thousands of players around the world and competing with a lot of other big titles from bigger companies…. many players obviously love the game and don’t have any serious issues with the game at all. Even if the game still has some issues to be fixed up, Torn Banner is obviously doing something right.

    And hey… MarkedOne… Since you’re such an expert, why don’t you show us all how it’s done? Rather than constantly bitching about the problem, why don’t you use your genius, crack open the game and tell us all what they did wrong and how to fix it?

    If it’s such a simple task, I’m sure you could figure it out in a couple of minutes.

    I’m sure Torn Banner would even cut you in on some of that $$ they sucked from everybody.



  • And hey…. MarkedOne… Since you’re such an expert, why don’t you show us all how it’s done? Rather than constantly bitching about the problem, why don’t you use your genius, crack open the game and tell us all what they did wrong and how to fix it?

    Because he’d need the source code for that. :jrazz:



  • @Lord:

    Because he’d need the source code for that. :jrazz:

    Just the SDK when it comes out (if it hasn’t already)

    Red Orchestra 2 is on the Unreal 3 Engine and has the SDK available to every player. Many in the community fixed a number of things for the game, like client side hit detection, coloured team chat, etc…. and Tripwire brought those fixes into the game as official updates.



  • What’s with the hate Paxius, I probably love the game as much as you do and I’ve sank 340 hours onto this game. You shouldn’t personally attack me even if you don’t like my ideas or my post.

    You seem to change all my post to whatever you get from it. I suggest you to just try to understand rather then hating without understanding.

    Sadly, yes my english is not good because it is not my native tongue. I never claimed to be the game developer expert here. I just stated that because of I am a computer engineer I know how a testing or bugfixing is supposed to happen. This is not an e-penis war. But just because you asked:

    ! I developed some casual 3D games from scratch with my small team too on PC and WP8, using CryEngine 2 and IdTech 3 (Doom 3 engine). I mostly code AI, core game mechanics and sometimes graphics (openGL) if my mate needs it. But I will not head down and be serious about the game developing route if that matters.
    But these are not related to my ideas. These do not have anything to do with I am saying. I only said that I know how debugging process works and how painful it is. In fact I even said, it is harder to correct a code then writing a new one on my answer to Doom454.

    @Cpt-Praxius:

    Actually there’s a hell of a lot more to it than that.

    Back before the Internet came around, they didn’t spend as much time perfecting games and programs as they do today because back before the internet came along, you had only 2-3 PC models to test on…… 286’s, 386’s and 486’s, etc.

    Sorry but nothing I talked about is related to hardware bugs. Solely software bugs, the code that is written gameplay wise. I just talked about testing and debugging that, because, my point was the bugs in the gameplay. That, you got to care of yourself as those bugs are independent from hardware. Did I say anything about crashes, game performance or graphic glitches? I only meant the bugs in the gameplay. I am talking about the software, the game code itself. The things that hardware can’t interfere or show it defferent. It’s not performance, it’s not freezes crashes or hiccups, it’s not graphical glitches or sound problems or compatibility problems or hardware mapping problems etc. Just talked about the bugs in the game itself, the bugs in the gameplay. The bugs in the gameplay code written, the bugs on maps, the bugs on content, the bugs on models. Such as weapon model being in a different length vs its hit trace lines. Or the bugs in the game modes, that are map dependent or player behaviour dependent. Or the bugs in the core fighting mechanics. Those have very little thing to do with problems caused by hardware. Actually, most of us know these are not hardware related.

    @Cpt-Praxius:

    A Computer Engineer is not the same department as a Game Developer.

    I’m a Graphic Designer, Animator, 3D Modeler, Photographer & Editor…… want me to unzip and flop it out to measure up too?

    Just because you know how to use a computer for one thing, that doesn’t make you an expert on everything else.

    And?
    Hmm I am not sure you know what computer engineering is. You know that people writing the core game code is preffered to be software or computer engineers mostly (if they can be ), right?

    @Cpt-Praxius:

    Browser works fine for me…. it’s been working fine for me before the patch. Maybe there’s something wrong with your computer’s setup, Mr. Engineer.
    Answer me this Genius… did you report the bug to the devs, provided them with details on what is happening and provide your system’s specs to help them narrow it down?

    Then don’t be surprised that they didn’t narrow down the issues you are having because they can’t read your fk’n mind.

    Man….
    I am happy that the browser which Torn Banner tries fix for months is working fine for you. Yeah my computer setup is screwed. I should post my hardware specs also to see whats wrong with my browser. Maybe they got the wrong impression to fix the things that are working because of people like me.

    I am just not going to continue answering the rest. The rest is just… I can’t believe how you are manipulating what I say and I am sad about it… I think you can get what you want from my answer post to Doom454 if it really matters for you because I already answered most of them. You should have read it by now if you really care about this discussion. And try not to attack other people personally if you want a mature discussion.

    But just one last time… I don’t expect a fully bug free game and that is utopia. My only concern is about the mentality on some decisions which I really explained in detail.

    I don’t have any problems with anybody nor Torn Banner. I wrote numereous times that I respect the guys at Torn Banner and I sank 340 hours to this game. Actually, this game company is the only one that I care enough to post a thread on this length… If anybody wants to discuss, disagree, explain or contribute to topic, I am open for it. But try not to attack me or manipulate the things I’ve said.



  • I agree with you in some points. I would not go as far as accusing them as greedy but I also think it is scandalous that they could not fix the server browser by now. I admit it is slightly better than it was but it is still on the edge of usability. Pings are off, number of players are off, some servers are randomly showing up and disappearing… etc. Also joining on a friend is an absolute pain in the ass.
    They really should focus on this. For new players this is an extremely disappointing experience. I know because I had friends trying it through the free weekend and some of them just gave up after they could not join us or did not find a server to join. So yeah… I love the game as well but seriously, this server browser is a massive pile of turd.



  • @BobT36:

    They HAVE been testing appropriately

    We would all like to assume that , but when someone on the dev team doesn’t even consider my feedback on something game breaking I think that is a problem.



  • @kKNd:

    I agree with you in some points. I would not go as far as accusing them as greedy but I also think it is scandalous that they could not fix the server browser by now.

    Hmm yeah, but I too don’t think the term greedy is appropriate. I think I would rather say that $$ weights more than passion when I look to their decisions and mentality.

    @kKNd:

    For new players this is an extremely disappointing experience.

    This is a very key feedback too. I have gifted and recommended this game to some of my friends. After sometime when I asked that why are you not playing it, they told me that they can’t use the server browser. Well after understanding how it works, it functions on the edge but it needs some guide to understand. On user friendliness; yes it is more stable and mostly refreshes without needing to restart the game for the newcomers. On funtionality: that 20 sec timer is killing me. It is not enough to find a server with low ping and lag for me. I only can see a portion of all servers out there.

    @Genocide:

    We would all like to assume that , but when someone on the dev team doesn’t even consider my feedback on something game breaking I think that is a problem.

    I think you should open that up and elaborate (I am not sure this is the right word here). What do you mean?



  • Haha, what a story Mark!



  • @Sophax:

    Haha, what a story Mark!

    Baby please don’t goo hoooooo!!! And well done on the duel FOR Kimiko. You definately earned your victory and sweet nectar :k1:


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