Feinting ruining the fun… :(



  • @DSMatticus:

    …snip…

    I’ve debated this topic to death my friend, in several discussions you haven’t even been a part of or witness to. I’ve even entertained solutions that disagree with my point of view, and while some acknowledge this, it’s usually rolled over or drowned out by even more threads and posts on this issue.

    In the end, I’m simply offering my perspective to Torn Banner, nothing more. My post wasn’t directed at you, so I don’t know why you’re telling me to fuck off at the end of your post, or why you’re so agitated by what I have to say in general.

    Fact of the matter is, your side of the argument is weighted by several players that are well below the status quo. Doesn’t mean they aren’t good players, just that they haven’t gotten there yet. But now they have this bandwagon to latch onto when they get feinted, die and rage.

    Some may browse the forums, find several posts advocating for feints to be adjusted and interpret this as validation behind their frustration. There are TONS of high level players who have never posted in these forums, or on this issue, that find feints perfectly acceptable the way they are. But they don’t post, so their experienced opinions are never heard and their sentiments aren’t weighed in the overall argument.

    In any case, I’m done with this debate for good.

    I can already tell this mechanic is going to be adjusted. I guarantee it. So GG and best of luck! 8-)



  • @Slaughtervomit:

    1. Convert feints into full on attack cancels with a short cooldown for attacking. (During this time can still parry/block) This would eliminate the exploitive type move of combo feinting to reduce recovery time as well.

    This is not a compromise. This is completely changing the purpose of feints, making them useless at what they were originally designed to be.

    Example compromise:
    Add a cool down to feints in order to force a true attack (or nothing at all) immediately after a feint. This would allow consistently good feint users to still use the mechanic effectively, but would punish bad feint users by forcing a parry-able attack and therefore a change in battle control.
    Obviously this could cause problems when it comes to defensive feinting, so the cooldown time would need to be tweaked.

    See how the above retains the purpose of the mechanic while making it harder or more riskier to use?

    Also, I was under the impression that the most verbose anti-feinters in this thread were actually competitive players that used feints and thought they were OP. To find out that you guys actually gave up feinting entirely a long time ago and almost exclusively duel really screws up your argument. How can you argue that feints are boring and bad when you haven’t even played a decent amount of scrims in order to reach that conclusion?



  • Fact of the matter is, your side of the argument is weighted by several players that are well below the status quo. Doesn’t mean they aren’t good players, just that they haven’t gotten there yet. But now they have this bandwagon to latch onto when they get feinted, die and rage.

    You mean like how Dark Symphony is defending feints? LOL

    Anyone who thinks their opinion weighs more because they are “competitive” Chiv players are pretty much retarded. You play in a scene in which there are only 3 teams worth scrimming. The level of play in Chiv is so low(in competitive play) that above average players are now “top tier” when in other games they wouldn’t even be considered the best at anything. I’ve played many games competitively and I know when someone is mediocre.

    Hexen you aren’t that good compared to the rest of the competitive players you are including yourself with. I’ve dueled you under the alias Shu Zhaoyun and beat you with MAA. So has my friend pornguy.

    There are better players than you and me that don’t bother with competitive play. They don’t bother with this game at all. That’s why competitive chiv doesn’t mean shit right now.

    I wonder how many rounds you would win against our alpha team, me, america, kwazi, opressor, phalanx, geno… Maybe scrim some times soon? its been several months since you won 1 map against peglegs squad

    I would love to however. Anyway wouldn’t change the fact that America carries your team since the rest of you aren’t that good.

    1.I don’t play Chiv much anymore.
    2.None of my friends do.
    3.I have no team. because of ^
    4.I don’t care about the scene anymore.

    I also remember when I played on KVII’s server and Cap America tried to recruit me to play MAA for your team. This was after I quit LG because in general they suck. I turned him down to form a team with my friends.

    Let me know when the comp scene picks up and I’ll either join a team or form one :)



  • @Slaughtervomit:

    We still seem to be in stage 1 of the entire discussion… Arguing about if it’s ok or not.
    Stage 2 is determining how to please as many people as possible…
    Step 3 is testing the possible solution and getting feedback about it…
    Step 4 is releasing it and getting further feedback.
    Step 5 is finding another topic to argue about…

    I’ll repeat my possible solution the best I can. I would love to hear feedback from both sides about it. I’d appreciate constructive feedback from both sides. Please don’t insult anyone or whatever… Here’s my idea:

    1. Convert feints into full on attack cancels with a short cooldown for attacking. (During this time can still parry/block) This would eliminate the exploitive type move of combo feinting to reduce recovery time as well.

    2. Nerf parries. Make the hitbox truly at the tip of the weapons like stated in-game and/or reduce the active time on parries in order to force people to time them better.

    1. see NabsterHax’s post and other stuff, would not work. I don’t elaborate “other stuff” because your suggestion is impossible due to:

    2. Reducing parryhitbox size by a large margin (as in substantially lower than buckler’s hitbox) or reducing the parry active time is not possible without lag compensation. A parry window of 0.2s would get you hit quite often when fighting someone with about 100 ping, no matter how good you parry (when you parry “right” on your screen the real parry on the server might be off). The same is true for a small hitbox. Your opponents weapon on your screen may be(read : WILL BE) somewhere else than it is in “reality” (read server-side).

    I don’t know why Torn Banner chose to not implement lag compensation. But without this nerfing parries substantially is not reasonable.

    Feint is only so powerful due to parry being so powerful (I know this sounds funny^^). But if there were other mechanis which would allow you to (reliably) counter parry, then feint would be much less “op”. This is also the reason why low-level players don’t use feint: they don’t have to, because they get their hits anyway (mostly due to the enemy doing mistakes). Somewhere in the rank 20’s most players pick up feint because their opponents parry skills are now so good, that they have no other reliable method to get hits (ALL other methods to counter a parry are MUCH harder and only learned much later).

    I personally think feints are somewhat okay…tad too strong maybe. Small nerf would be ok. But that is hard to achieve, as CMW is hit or no hit. I think the only way to reach that middle ground is by semi reactionary-feints (as written in my earlier post ~3 pages ago).



  • Lol Musashi you are retarded … most time you talk about top tier players, competetive, high level players etc., you compare this game to other games ? fail
    This is a new game, this is a mind game, apparently im a good player but i give a fuck about competetive in other games because i hate it there (egoshooters).

    But here you must have other qualities, you must have the heart of a warrior fight and die for your side fight for your life and glory then you will be the best palyer.
    Just accept that this game is not as the other games, accept that there is part of the game you cant access a high levelgameplay hidden behind numbers but not understandable, not be able to break up and be used for ure good. oh i like it all hail chivalery all hail tbs

    as i said feints with slight slight changes at max, more likely new mechanics, tbs will do it right



  • The feint mechanism is garbage. People spam with it.



  • I can only imagine what CMW would’ve been like if feints never even existed from the beginning of its development.
    I doubt the game would’ve ended up with less players than now and surely there wouldn’t be a big chunk of the player base complaining that the game is boring and suggest something like “You know what this game needs? A powerful coin-toss mechanic to get past parries.”



  • @The:

    I guess America never told you, he invited me a while back. As well as Kila, FK before they disbanded, LG tried to recruit me if I recall, although I didn’t feint so that probably would not have worked, the Jackbaldy team before they stopped playing. Vq, and I think Int may have, although not Bada, he doesn’t like me. ;)

    Interitus has never invited you.



  • All that Torn Banner has to do is just add quick time events so you can have a chance to survive the crazy mixup. 8-)



  • @HEXEN:

    Bottom line of this discussion: People get feinted, die and rage. That’s the only reason this debate is even happeneing. It would be wise for everyone, even the developers, to remember that. Regardless of all the meta bullshit theorycraft talk that’s been said so far on both sides, aggrivation, frustration and irritation is driving this argument, which should be recognized as automatic bias.

    Now, if everyone felt this way, it would be universal law. It would be me handing you a five dollar bill and you handing me back three singles. That’s bullshit, and I don’t think anyone would argue against that unless you just love getting screwed over.

    The problem is, not everyone rages after they get feinted and die. They have accepted it as a mechanic, and when it happens, they simply chalk it up to being outplayed and tricked by the opponent. I am one of these people. I have learned to deal with them as best I can and have continued to play with feints as part of my strategy and repertoire, developing tactics that I can use against them and with them.

    I have found success in Chivalry regardless of this mechanic. I have played since day one, rolled with the punches and am a fairly decent player, but certainly not the best.

    Here’s what really chaps my ass: People who are inept at dealing with, adapting, overcoming this mechanic, are trying to dictate how I should be playing this game. They’re angling for changes to a mechanic I am perfectly comfortable with, have leraned to play with, have adapted against.

    So what… because someone else cannot do the same it should be changed? What I’ve learned to deal with, accept and use should be altered because someone else doesn’t like or can’t handle it?

    I’m sorry, that’s complete horseshit.

    Here’s a very loose example based on principle: Not everyone can play basketball. Imagine if the game was redifined every time a certain argument had enough bandwagon support behind it. Should the rules and parameters be changed based on the arguments of those unable to compete at a high level? I keep missing my shots, so the rim must be bigger. I don’t like that I can’t move again after I’ve stopped dribbling the ball. That should be changed.

    The reason there are rules to follow and guidlines to abide by is because it brings out the best of the best competitors. People who are adept at following these rules and playing the best within the established set of parameters.

    I bought Chivalry Medieval Warfare at launch and have played the game as it was delivered to us. But because someone else hasn’t had my success or doesn’t agree with a gaming element, the game should be altered to cater to that point of view, which in turn alters the way I have come to understand and play the game?

    No, I’m sorry. That doesn’t fly with me at all.

    If we’re going to alter this game based off people’s annoyance, then Oil Pots should be removed because I don’t like how easy they are to use. They have an AOE that requires very little aiming and isn’t skill based at all. I also don’t like the fact that MAA’s have a second chance to save themselves from mistakes because of their dodge. Faster 1H weapons are just too fast and I cannot react to the combos they can deliver. They should only be able to deliver single strikes at a time. Look down overheads and swing manipulation are too hard to read and react to. Please introduce a movement lockout feature that prevents these things from happening.

    In the X Games, the double BMX backflip should not be counted for score because not everyone can pull it off. It’s therefore unfair to those people who have not mastered or attempted to master this trick.

    I’m happy with Chivalry. I’m happy with the game I’ve purchased. I’ve learned to play it as is in its current form and have found success with it. Stop trying to dictate how I play the game I’ve purchased. The same game that everyone purchased. I really don’t care for adjusting the way I play because of the gripes of other people.

    Thanks, I don’t think I would have enough patience to make such a big and polite post. An excellent summary of the issue. It’s unfortunate that some anti-feinters are no different from fundamentalists and will just keep ignoring the truth.



  • In skimming every feint thread, it’s occurred to me that there’s a great deal of e-cock waving. As such, this needs to be put out there: game design and player skill are two entirely separate discussion. What feint does as a mechanic, how it operates, and the effects it has on gameplay are a different discussion from “I’ll fuck you up bitch you better not come 'round my neighborhood,” and even some of the most skilled players in any genre don’t often understand underpinning theories and concepts that make a game function - they don’t have to, because someone else already did that work for them. By analogy, you only have to learn to drive your car, because someone else already built it for you.



  • First posting. Rank 36 maybe you’ve seen me, maybe not.

    In my opinion feinting is fine the way it is. For all of you brandishing your epeens: i hate to counter all your hard work at this game but the game should not be balanced around the voices of the few. The VAST majority of players have probably never even seen these forums. Removing feint entirely would just remove another mechanic that the masses can practice, keeping them hooked. As for an alteration to feinting - I can’t say. This whole discussion seemed to pop up when duel mode arrived and the veterans started 1v1ing other vets. I didn’t see many complaints when you guys were stomping pubs in TO. Then when you fight another person who has practiced feinting and lose, then you’re off to the forums to rage.

    Please note this is just my two cents and that this post is not aimed at, or in reply to, any one person. Tl;dr leave feinting alone and deal with it. This game is meant for large battles - not duels. I don’t see this game being a big esports draw either. I plan on just enjoying the game I have been enjoying for the past 200+ hours.



  • @Sir:

    I can only imagine what CMW would’ve been like if feints never even existed from the beginning of its development.
    I doubt the game would’ve ended up with less players than now and surely there wouldn’t be a big chunk of the player base complaining that the game is boring and suggest something like “You know what this game needs? A powerful coin-toss mechanic to get past parries.”

    This is exactly what I was thinking. If feints were not in from the start, the notion that there’d be a community split in people wanting it in (to the extreme it is now at least) is ludicrous.

    It’s only getting such a valiant defense because people got used to depending on it as a crutch and cannot imagine fighting without it.



  • @KevLar:

    Removing feint entirely would just remove another mechanic that the masses can practice, keeping them hooked.

    The vast majority of the “masses” don’t feint. If we are talking pubplay, you just don’t see feints. And when you do see someone feinting reliably and well in pubs, they frequently end up going 30-10 or something similar.

    @KevLar:

    This whole discussion seemed to pop up when duel mode arrived and the veterans started 1v1ing other vets. I didn’t see many complaints when you guys were stomping pubs in TO. Then when you fight another person who has practiced feinting and lose, then you’re off to the forums to rage.

    You could read the threads and look at the dates, and realize you’re totally wrong. Or you could just hop on the forums and subtly call everyone who disagrees with the effect the mechanic has on the game whiny losers. That’s… certainly the other option. It seems to be the most popular one, that’s for sure.

    @KevLar:

    This game is meant for large battles - not duels.

    That’s incredibly irrelevant. Feinting certainly isn’t necessary in either, and it has pretty much the same effect on both - it explodes parries regardless of defender skill.



  • @DSMatticus:

    @KevLar:

    @KevLar:

    This game is meant for large battles - not duels.

    That’s incredibly irrelevant. Feinting certainly isn’t necessary in either, and it has pretty much the same effect on both - it explodes parries regardless of defender skill.

    Then stop parrying a feint numb-nut, that the point of feints, to get past parries… I do fine against feints and only die on rare occasions when I panicked and blocked too early. Not that you would ever understand, fundamentalist baddie.

    The vast majority of the “masses” don’t feint. If we are talking pubplay, you just don’t see feints. And when you do see someone feinting reliably and well in pubs, they frequently end up going 30-10 or something similar.

    Then why don’t you go 30 10? Oh yeah… you can’t even do 3 k/d lmao.

    Hexxen summed up everything already, but matticus’s ego would be bruised for life if he were to ever accept the facts. Fundamentalist is a fundamentalist.



  • @Avallac:

    Then stop parrying a feint numb-nut, that the point of feints, to get past parries… I do fine against feints and only die on rare occasions when I panicked and blocked too early.

    Cool. Let’s hop on a server, and I’ll mix feint>hit and hit to throw at you, and we’ll fraps it. The world needs to know how amazingly super good you are at seeing feints and not parrying at them. Show the baddies, Avallac. Show the baddies.

    @Avallac:

    fundamentalist fundamentalist fundamentalist

    You’re doubling down on nuking this conversation with a variant of Godwin’s Law, huh? Would you please stop threadshitting and trolling with “you disagree with me, so you’re a nazi fundamentalist!”



  • Quit it with the personal targeting. If you have to call someone ‘bad’ or some other insult to put your argument across then you need to rethink your argument completely.



  • A dev (I believe it was Slygoat) already mentioned that feints are going to be tweaked in an upcoming patch.
    Hopefully the end result will have the mechanic changed to such a degree that skilled players with good reaction time can defend against them without guesswork.

    Stoic supporters of feints can either choose to interpret this as ‘whiners getting their way’ or ‘average players attempting to lower the skill cap’ or they can try to reevaluate their slightly-bias views on the mechanic of feinting and it’s ability to transcend a large amount of skill difference between players given it’s power.



  • @KevLar:

    First posting. Rank 36 maybe you’ve seen me, maybe not.

    In my opinion feinting is fine the way it is. For all of you brandishing your epeens: i hate to counter all your hard work at this game but the game should not be balanced around the voices of the few. The VAST majority of players have probably never even seen these forums. Removing feint entirely would just remove another mechanic that the masses can practice, keeping them hooked. As for an alteration to feinting - I can’t say. This whole discussion seemed to pop up when duel mode arrived and the veterans started 1v1ing other vets. I didn’t see many complaints when you guys were stomping pubs in TO. Then when you fight another person who has practiced feinting and lose, then you’re off to the forums to rage.

    Please note this is just my two cents and that this post is not aimed at, or in reply to, any one person. Tl;dr leave feinting alone and deal with it. This game is meant for large battles - not duels. I don’t see this game being a big esports draw either. I plan on just enjoying the game I have been enjoying for the past 200+ hours.

    The problem with this “vast majority” of players is they don’t have a voice because they don’t use the forums. Your theory is that everyone who isn’t on the forums likes feinting? I would like to think the ratio of pro:anti feints would be similar out of the forums as on the forums…

    Anyway, you are entitled to an opinion. I respect your opinion on the matter. I don’t feel that feints are ok, but that is my opinion. I feel like changing feints would mean changing parry as well. I’ve actually mentioned my suggestion a couple times so I wont repeat it, but it’s there.

    Btw, thank you for being civil about your thoughts :)

    @Sir:

    A dev (I believe it was Slygoat) already mentioned that feints are going to be tweaked in an upcoming patch.
    Hopefully the end result will have the mechanic changed to such a degree that skilled players with good reaction time can defend against them without guesswork.

    Stoic supporters of feints can either choose to interpret this as ‘whiners getting their way’ or ‘average players attempting to lower the skill cap’ or they can try to reevaluate their slightly-bias views on the mechanic of feinting and it’s ability to transcend a large amount of skill difference between players given it’s power.

    It was Slygoat. They are going to do some testing on a possible fix. I think that testing “what could be” is a great idea, even if it isn’t implemented, it doesn’t hurt to test things out and possibly make combat more enjoyable!

    I really hope that something can be done to make both sides happy… I mean, you can’t please EVERYONE, but at least do something to help the situation…



  • @Sir:

    A dev (I believe it was Slygoat) already mentioned that feints are going to be tweaked in an upcoming patch.
    Hopefully the end result will have the mechanic changed to such a degree that skilled players with good reaction time can defend against them without guesswork.

    Stoic supporters of feints can either choose to interpret this as ‘whiners getting their way’ or ‘average players attempting to lower the skill cap’ or they can try to reevaluate their slightly-bias views on the mechanic of feinting and it’s ability to transcend a large amount of skill difference between players given it’s power.

    And that’s just silly. Change a mechanic meant to punish parries so that it’s easier to defend against the maneuver with the maneuver it’s supposed to counter.

    This is the exact kind of sentiment I reference when I say that it takes more than playing a game to understand how to create a game.

    I made the point before… There’s a good chance the guys at TB aren’t the best players in the world. But they have a good idea of how their game works and the vision they have backing it.

    I’d hate to see them make what essentially is a political decision and alter things based on complaining. Games do that these days and it’s always really stupid because it’s not based on any logic.

    People talk about how feinting MUST be a problem because look at all the people complaining about it! I bet no one would miss it! You’re right. There’d be complaining about something else instead. That’s one of the first things you learn about public feedback when it comes to games.

    This isn’t the first polarizing mechanic in video games. EVERY game has one. It’s usually something that has a significant effect on gameplay that drives people out of their comfort zone. Unfortunately these things are usually necessary to keep games from ending up as interactive pseudo-stalemates. Games need those game-changing mechanics in order to function and push things along.

    The more the conversation goes the more clear it becomes that there isn’t any inherent problem with the mechanic and it’s not even that the feature isn’t working right. It’s that people simply hate what it does.

    “It gives someone a simple way to beat a parry without doing all this other stuff.” That’s a silly “problem.” The rest of the game doesn’t shut down. You still have all of the other elements to account for. Feinting doesn’t give a free hit and if you account for it you now strategize with it in mind. But thinking that the only real qualified of skillful defense is aiming blocks and presenting that as some truth is silly.

    I defend the crap out of feinting because I’ve seen this situation 1000 times and it’s often with a mechanic that negates a common defense.

    All the talk about who’s good and who’s not is irrelevant. If you take issue with there being a counter to parry at all then I’d say reassess your choice to play this particular game rather than push to change it at it’s core (and for the worse, I might add).

    Oh, and people need to quit operating as if “spam” is a word that means something is bad. You can spam feints? Is that getting you? Really? You made the WRONG choice to block during that WHOLE time?

    Silliness.


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