Feinting ruining the fun… :(



  • The feint mechanism is garbage. People spam with it.



  • I can only imagine what CMW would’ve been like if feints never even existed from the beginning of its development.
    I doubt the game would’ve ended up with less players than now and surely there wouldn’t be a big chunk of the player base complaining that the game is boring and suggest something like “You know what this game needs? A powerful coin-toss mechanic to get past parries.”



  • @The:

    I guess America never told you, he invited me a while back. As well as Kila, FK before they disbanded, LG tried to recruit me if I recall, although I didn’t feint so that probably would not have worked, the Jackbaldy team before they stopped playing. Vq, and I think Int may have, although not Bada, he doesn’t like me. ;)

    Interitus has never invited you.



  • All that Torn Banner has to do is just add quick time events so you can have a chance to survive the crazy mixup. 8-)



  • @HEXEN:

    Bottom line of this discussion: People get feinted, die and rage. That’s the only reason this debate is even happeneing. It would be wise for everyone, even the developers, to remember that. Regardless of all the meta bullshit theorycraft talk that’s been said so far on both sides, aggrivation, frustration and irritation is driving this argument, which should be recognized as automatic bias.

    Now, if everyone felt this way, it would be universal law. It would be me handing you a five dollar bill and you handing me back three singles. That’s bullshit, and I don’t think anyone would argue against that unless you just love getting screwed over.

    The problem is, not everyone rages after they get feinted and die. They have accepted it as a mechanic, and when it happens, they simply chalk it up to being outplayed and tricked by the opponent. I am one of these people. I have learned to deal with them as best I can and have continued to play with feints as part of my strategy and repertoire, developing tactics that I can use against them and with them.

    I have found success in Chivalry regardless of this mechanic. I have played since day one, rolled with the punches and am a fairly decent player, but certainly not the best.

    Here’s what really chaps my ass: People who are inept at dealing with, adapting, overcoming this mechanic, are trying to dictate how I should be playing this game. They’re angling for changes to a mechanic I am perfectly comfortable with, have leraned to play with, have adapted against.

    So what… because someone else cannot do the same it should be changed? What I’ve learned to deal with, accept and use should be altered because someone else doesn’t like or can’t handle it?

    I’m sorry, that’s complete horseshit.

    Here’s a very loose example based on principle: Not everyone can play basketball. Imagine if the game was redifined every time a certain argument had enough bandwagon support behind it. Should the rules and parameters be changed based on the arguments of those unable to compete at a high level? I keep missing my shots, so the rim must be bigger. I don’t like that I can’t move again after I’ve stopped dribbling the ball. That should be changed.

    The reason there are rules to follow and guidlines to abide by is because it brings out the best of the best competitors. People who are adept at following these rules and playing the best within the established set of parameters.

    I bought Chivalry Medieval Warfare at launch and have played the game as it was delivered to us. But because someone else hasn’t had my success or doesn’t agree with a gaming element, the game should be altered to cater to that point of view, which in turn alters the way I have come to understand and play the game?

    No, I’m sorry. That doesn’t fly with me at all.

    If we’re going to alter this game based off people’s annoyance, then Oil Pots should be removed because I don’t like how easy they are to use. They have an AOE that requires very little aiming and isn’t skill based at all. I also don’t like the fact that MAA’s have a second chance to save themselves from mistakes because of their dodge. Faster 1H weapons are just too fast and I cannot react to the combos they can deliver. They should only be able to deliver single strikes at a time. Look down overheads and swing manipulation are too hard to read and react to. Please introduce a movement lockout feature that prevents these things from happening.

    In the X Games, the double BMX backflip should not be counted for score because not everyone can pull it off. It’s therefore unfair to those people who have not mastered or attempted to master this trick.

    I’m happy with Chivalry. I’m happy with the game I’ve purchased. I’ve learned to play it as is in its current form and have found success with it. Stop trying to dictate how I play the game I’ve purchased. The same game that everyone purchased. I really don’t care for adjusting the way I play because of the gripes of other people.

    Thanks, I don’t think I would have enough patience to make such a big and polite post. An excellent summary of the issue. It’s unfortunate that some anti-feinters are no different from fundamentalists and will just keep ignoring the truth.



  • In skimming every feint thread, it’s occurred to me that there’s a great deal of e-cock waving. As such, this needs to be put out there: game design and player skill are two entirely separate discussion. What feint does as a mechanic, how it operates, and the effects it has on gameplay are a different discussion from “I’ll fuck you up bitch you better not come 'round my neighborhood,” and even some of the most skilled players in any genre don’t often understand underpinning theories and concepts that make a game function - they don’t have to, because someone else already did that work for them. By analogy, you only have to learn to drive your car, because someone else already built it for you.



  • First posting. Rank 36 maybe you’ve seen me, maybe not.

    In my opinion feinting is fine the way it is. For all of you brandishing your epeens: i hate to counter all your hard work at this game but the game should not be balanced around the voices of the few. The VAST majority of players have probably never even seen these forums. Removing feint entirely would just remove another mechanic that the masses can practice, keeping them hooked. As for an alteration to feinting - I can’t say. This whole discussion seemed to pop up when duel mode arrived and the veterans started 1v1ing other vets. I didn’t see many complaints when you guys were stomping pubs in TO. Then when you fight another person who has practiced feinting and lose, then you’re off to the forums to rage.

    Please note this is just my two cents and that this post is not aimed at, or in reply to, any one person. Tl;dr leave feinting alone and deal with it. This game is meant for large battles - not duels. I don’t see this game being a big esports draw either. I plan on just enjoying the game I have been enjoying for the past 200+ hours.



  • @Sir:

    I can only imagine what CMW would’ve been like if feints never even existed from the beginning of its development.
    I doubt the game would’ve ended up with less players than now and surely there wouldn’t be a big chunk of the player base complaining that the game is boring and suggest something like “You know what this game needs? A powerful coin-toss mechanic to get past parries.”

    This is exactly what I was thinking. If feints were not in from the start, the notion that there’d be a community split in people wanting it in (to the extreme it is now at least) is ludicrous.

    It’s only getting such a valiant defense because people got used to depending on it as a crutch and cannot imagine fighting without it.



  • @KevLar:

    Removing feint entirely would just remove another mechanic that the masses can practice, keeping them hooked.

    The vast majority of the “masses” don’t feint. If we are talking pubplay, you just don’t see feints. And when you do see someone feinting reliably and well in pubs, they frequently end up going 30-10 or something similar.

    @KevLar:

    This whole discussion seemed to pop up when duel mode arrived and the veterans started 1v1ing other vets. I didn’t see many complaints when you guys were stomping pubs in TO. Then when you fight another person who has practiced feinting and lose, then you’re off to the forums to rage.

    You could read the threads and look at the dates, and realize you’re totally wrong. Or you could just hop on the forums and subtly call everyone who disagrees with the effect the mechanic has on the game whiny losers. That’s… certainly the other option. It seems to be the most popular one, that’s for sure.

    @KevLar:

    This game is meant for large battles - not duels.

    That’s incredibly irrelevant. Feinting certainly isn’t necessary in either, and it has pretty much the same effect on both - it explodes parries regardless of defender skill.



  • @DSMatticus:

    @KevLar:

    @KevLar:

    This game is meant for large battles - not duels.

    That’s incredibly irrelevant. Feinting certainly isn’t necessary in either, and it has pretty much the same effect on both - it explodes parries regardless of defender skill.

    Then stop parrying a feint numb-nut, that the point of feints, to get past parries… I do fine against feints and only die on rare occasions when I panicked and blocked too early. Not that you would ever understand, fundamentalist baddie.

    The vast majority of the “masses” don’t feint. If we are talking pubplay, you just don’t see feints. And when you do see someone feinting reliably and well in pubs, they frequently end up going 30-10 or something similar.

    Then why don’t you go 30 10? Oh yeah… you can’t even do 3 k/d lmao.

    Hexxen summed up everything already, but matticus’s ego would be bruised for life if he were to ever accept the facts. Fundamentalist is a fundamentalist.



  • @Avallac:

    Then stop parrying a feint numb-nut, that the point of feints, to get past parries… I do fine against feints and only die on rare occasions when I panicked and blocked too early.

    Cool. Let’s hop on a server, and I’ll mix feint>hit and hit to throw at you, and we’ll fraps it. The world needs to know how amazingly super good you are at seeing feints and not parrying at them. Show the baddies, Avallac. Show the baddies.

    @Avallac:

    fundamentalist fundamentalist fundamentalist

    You’re doubling down on nuking this conversation with a variant of Godwin’s Law, huh? Would you please stop threadshitting and trolling with “you disagree with me, so you’re a nazi fundamentalist!”



  • Quit it with the personal targeting. If you have to call someone ‘bad’ or some other insult to put your argument across then you need to rethink your argument completely.



  • A dev (I believe it was Slygoat) already mentioned that feints are going to be tweaked in an upcoming patch.
    Hopefully the end result will have the mechanic changed to such a degree that skilled players with good reaction time can defend against them without guesswork.

    Stoic supporters of feints can either choose to interpret this as ‘whiners getting their way’ or ‘average players attempting to lower the skill cap’ or they can try to reevaluate their slightly-bias views on the mechanic of feinting and it’s ability to transcend a large amount of skill difference between players given it’s power.



  • @KevLar:

    First posting. Rank 36 maybe you’ve seen me, maybe not.

    In my opinion feinting is fine the way it is. For all of you brandishing your epeens: i hate to counter all your hard work at this game but the game should not be balanced around the voices of the few. The VAST majority of players have probably never even seen these forums. Removing feint entirely would just remove another mechanic that the masses can practice, keeping them hooked. As for an alteration to feinting - I can’t say. This whole discussion seemed to pop up when duel mode arrived and the veterans started 1v1ing other vets. I didn’t see many complaints when you guys were stomping pubs in TO. Then when you fight another person who has practiced feinting and lose, then you’re off to the forums to rage.

    Please note this is just my two cents and that this post is not aimed at, or in reply to, any one person. Tl;dr leave feinting alone and deal with it. This game is meant for large battles - not duels. I don’t see this game being a big esports draw either. I plan on just enjoying the game I have been enjoying for the past 200+ hours.

    The problem with this “vast majority” of players is they don’t have a voice because they don’t use the forums. Your theory is that everyone who isn’t on the forums likes feinting? I would like to think the ratio of pro:anti feints would be similar out of the forums as on the forums…

    Anyway, you are entitled to an opinion. I respect your opinion on the matter. I don’t feel that feints are ok, but that is my opinion. I feel like changing feints would mean changing parry as well. I’ve actually mentioned my suggestion a couple times so I wont repeat it, but it’s there.

    Btw, thank you for being civil about your thoughts :)

    @Sir:

    A dev (I believe it was Slygoat) already mentioned that feints are going to be tweaked in an upcoming patch.
    Hopefully the end result will have the mechanic changed to such a degree that skilled players with good reaction time can defend against them without guesswork.

    Stoic supporters of feints can either choose to interpret this as ‘whiners getting their way’ or ‘average players attempting to lower the skill cap’ or they can try to reevaluate their slightly-bias views on the mechanic of feinting and it’s ability to transcend a large amount of skill difference between players given it’s power.

    It was Slygoat. They are going to do some testing on a possible fix. I think that testing “what could be” is a great idea, even if it isn’t implemented, it doesn’t hurt to test things out and possibly make combat more enjoyable!

    I really hope that something can be done to make both sides happy… I mean, you can’t please EVERYONE, but at least do something to help the situation…



  • @Sir:

    A dev (I believe it was Slygoat) already mentioned that feints are going to be tweaked in an upcoming patch.
    Hopefully the end result will have the mechanic changed to such a degree that skilled players with good reaction time can defend against them without guesswork.

    Stoic supporters of feints can either choose to interpret this as ‘whiners getting their way’ or ‘average players attempting to lower the skill cap’ or they can try to reevaluate their slightly-bias views on the mechanic of feinting and it’s ability to transcend a large amount of skill difference between players given it’s power.

    And that’s just silly. Change a mechanic meant to punish parries so that it’s easier to defend against the maneuver with the maneuver it’s supposed to counter.

    This is the exact kind of sentiment I reference when I say that it takes more than playing a game to understand how to create a game.

    I made the point before… There’s a good chance the guys at TB aren’t the best players in the world. But they have a good idea of how their game works and the vision they have backing it.

    I’d hate to see them make what essentially is a political decision and alter things based on complaining. Games do that these days and it’s always really stupid because it’s not based on any logic.

    People talk about how feinting MUST be a problem because look at all the people complaining about it! I bet no one would miss it! You’re right. There’d be complaining about something else instead. That’s one of the first things you learn about public feedback when it comes to games.

    This isn’t the first polarizing mechanic in video games. EVERY game has one. It’s usually something that has a significant effect on gameplay that drives people out of their comfort zone. Unfortunately these things are usually necessary to keep games from ending up as interactive pseudo-stalemates. Games need those game-changing mechanics in order to function and push things along.

    The more the conversation goes the more clear it becomes that there isn’t any inherent problem with the mechanic and it’s not even that the feature isn’t working right. It’s that people simply hate what it does.

    “It gives someone a simple way to beat a parry without doing all this other stuff.” That’s a silly “problem.” The rest of the game doesn’t shut down. You still have all of the other elements to account for. Feinting doesn’t give a free hit and if you account for it you now strategize with it in mind. But thinking that the only real qualified of skillful defense is aiming blocks and presenting that as some truth is silly.

    I defend the crap out of feinting because I’ve seen this situation 1000 times and it’s often with a mechanic that negates a common defense.

    All the talk about who’s good and who’s not is irrelevant. If you take issue with there being a counter to parry at all then I’d say reassess your choice to play this particular game rather than push to change it at it’s core (and for the worse, I might add).

    Oh, and people need to quit operating as if “spam” is a word that means something is bad. You can spam feints? Is that getting you? Really? You made the WRONG choice to block during that WHOLE time?

    Silliness.



  • I would have to be daft to think that those who don’t post on the forums all enjoy feinting. My main argument may have gotten lost in my previous post so I will try to be more concise. I in no way, shape or form think feinting should be removed entirely. Removing another skill to learn (for new players) simply lowers the chance that they will stick with the game. I never found feinting to be unfair personally but just another aspect to get better at.

    If feinting were to be altered so that it becomes a more skill-based mechanic, i would certainly not be opposed. Now the question is how. I don’t think a mere adjusting of stamina cost or windup window will serve as anything but a stopgap but those options may prove useful while a full overhaul is developed.



  • @Dark:

    Silliness.

    I don’t see what your big deal is with the devs testing a possible change. It’s not a bad thing to test possible changes to improve gameplay. Change isn’t always bad. If there’s a beta with the tests, why don’t you participate and put in your feedback about it at that point?

    Aslo, there’s an argument that anti feint is the minority… How would making a political descision based on what is called a “minority” benefit them? The way it works is that they see what people talk about, they look at the issue themselves, and then they question themselves “how do i feel about this? How do you other devs feel about this?” Obviously the devs have discussed it amongst themselves and felt that something should have been done about it. You’re right about the devs having a specific vision of the game… The community helps the devs with the ideas by providing feedback in which the devs take into consideration and either agree with, or they disagree with. Just because you like the current state of feints, doesn’t mean everyone does and the people who don’t, voice their opinion. The devs heard the opinion and have thought about it themselves. Don’t act like the devs are robots who can’t think for themselves.

    At this point, any changes are going to be in the form of a test. If the new way sucks, people will let the devs know they don’t like it… It’s how it should work.

    @KevLar:

    I would have to be daft to think that those who don’t post on the forums all enjoy feinting.

    I am sorry if you felt I was insulting you. I didn’t mean to.



  • @Dark:

    @Sir LMBalot:

    A dev (I believe it was Slygoat) already mentioned that feints are going to be tweaked in an upcoming patch.
    Hopefully the end result will have the mechanic changed to such a degree that skilled players with good reaction time can defend against them without guesswork.

    Stoic supporters of feints can either choose to interpret this as ‘whiners getting their way’ or ‘average players attempting to lower the skill cap’ or they can try to reevaluate their slightly-bias views on the mechanic of feinting and it’s ability to transcend a large amount of skill difference between players given it’s power.

    And that’s just silly. Change a mechanic meant to punish parries so that it’s easier to defend against the maneuver with the maneuver it’s supposed to counter.

    This is the exact kind of sentiment I reference when I say that it takes more than playing a game to understand how to create a game.

    I made the point before… There’s a good chance the guys at TB aren’t the best players in the world. But they have a good idea of how their game works and the vision they have backing it.

    I’d hate to see them make what essentially is a political decision and alter things based on complaining. Games do that these days and it’s always really stupid because it’s not based on any logic.

    People talk about how feinting MUST be a problem because look at all the people complaining about it! I bet no one would miss it! You’re right. There’d be complaining about something else instead. That’s one of the first things you learn about public feedback when it comes to games.

    This isn’t the first polarizing mechanic in video games. EVERY game has one. It’s usually something that has a significant effect on gameplay that drives people out of their comfort zone. Unfortunately these things are usually necessary to keep games from ending up as interactive pseudo-stalemates. Games need those game-changing mechanics in order to function and push things along.

    The more the conversation goes the more clear it becomes that there isn’t any inherent problem with the mechanic and it’s not even that the feature isn’t working right. It’s that people simply hate what it does.

    “It gives someone a simple way to beat a parry without doing all this other stuff.” That’s a silly “problem.” The rest of the game doesn’t shut down. You still have all of the other elements to account for. Feinting doesn’t give a free hit and if you account for it you now strategize with it in mind. But thinking that the only real qualified of skillful defense is aiming blocks and presenting that as some truth is silly.

    I defend the crap out of feinting because I’ve seen this situation 1000 times and it’s often with a mechanic that negates a common defense.

    All the talk about who’s good and who’s not is irrelevant. If you take issue with there being a counter to parry at all then I’d say reassess your choice to play this particular game rather than push to change it at it’s core (and for the worse, I might add).

    Oh, and people need to quit operating as if “spam” is a word that means something is bad. You can spam feints? Is that getting you? Really? You made the WRONG choice to block during that WHOLE time?

    Silliness.

    The logic is clear as day, you simply have glossed over it everytime it’s been presented.

    Feinting lowers the skill ceiling for one major, irrefutable reason: it is too powerful relative to everything else.

    This is all that needs to be said.

    If the goal is to make the game as skillful as it can be, feinting does not belong in its current format, period.



  • you guys r fucking stupid… feinting is needed in a game like this, just ask any competitive player, without feints, fights between experienced player would be long and boring, ruining competitive play. Also, the game would just turn into a game of numbers, no advantages, so it will basically turn into 95% of all players usinf the same class and the same weapon simply because it is statisticly the best, there will be no more “well this weapon has a significant damage advantage, so ill use it instead” it will be “well this one has more damage, but this one is better statisticly in other stats, ill use that one.” thus we end up in the same spot we were in when 95% of all players were vanguards with polearms pre-patch. Without feints, there would be no need to learn new skills like parry-to-feinting and ducking, because if u know how to parry, then ur 100% safe if u know how to read dancing and mouse drags(all experienced players), if we didnt hv feints, competitive play will be ruined in this way. Also, the combat in chivalry will just be too easy to learn then, it will be in this way: 1. learn to LMB 2. learn to parry 3. dont fall for mouse drags and dancing… thats it. Besides, i play around with competitive players and greater than 50% of the time they predict a feint and parry me, simplay because hes experienced, and he knows im experienced and i feint every now and then. also if u feint spam and it works, and u(the loser) complains because u lost, that just means u suck because after one feint u should expect the second, and if he doesnt feint the second swing, its still parriable(if not to u, u suck). feinting is needed in this game and if u complain about it then just use it or gtfo.



  • Besides, i play around with competitive players and greater than 50% of the time they predict a feint and parry me, simplay because hes experienced, and he knows im experienced and i feint every now and then

    With the way feinting works currently, I’d argue if that happens a lot to somebody, then the feinter is at fault, not the other player being ‘good’. Unless your opponent parried incorrectly, there’s no real reason to jump in with a real attack straight after, you gain absolutely nothing unless you intend to hit a side; you aren’t forced to attack after a feint, especially if the opponent makes a correct guess, lots of people feint and instantly hit the attack button without considering their timings. You may as well feint again, it only costs 15 stamina and your opponent is probably going to fall for it a second time, and the chance of them parrying increases the more feints you do successively. If your opponent decides to attack you instead, you can just feint-parry and then mix up your strategies a bit. Obviously I don’t advise doing this every single time because you become predictable but if you can keep it as your main strategy, and deliberately mess up one or two times to screw your opponent over and letting them think they blocked correctly, then it works a lot better for the feinter.

    This is why I’m personally in favour of more downsides for feint spam. If your opponent guesses correctly, you shouldn’t instantly have a second chance with being able to freely parry and/or feint again. But as I keep mentioning, the principle of feint - to attack someone during their parry recovery, should remain purely for the reason it is now in the game and removing an entire mechanic is a bad idea.


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