Please, stop jerking the Javelin



  • The Javelineer just isn’t what I think is what It’s inteded for. It doesn’t have its own niche, it’s bordering on the Bow’s territory which is guarded support, until they run out of Jav’s. Then they become nothing.

    So, what should a Javelineer be? I’ll tell you my image. It’s a light melee class. Fast, skilled, and what it lacks in melee, it makes up for being able to throw its main weapon.

    What do we have currently? We have a Javelineer that’s terrible in melee, paper clothing, paper plate he can’t see past, but incredible throwing speed and Javelin raise. Unfortunately, he has few Javelins to throw, and because one cannot obtain spears from corpses most times, or walls, this Javelineer relies heavily on Ammo boxes being available.

    What do you suggest? The thing is, Javelin men have shields because they will get into melee a lot, as they’re medium to melee range. As it is now, Bucklers are the largest detriment to the Javelineer’s melee.

    The buckler currently is the worst shield in the game bar none. It blinds you, drains tonnes of stamina, and has a tiny hit box. The stamina drain and tiny hitbox are fine, but it blinding you makes no sense, since it is primarily a melee shield, as its arrow coverage is pretty bad (unless crouched and NOT blocking).

    This shield is the single most disabling factor to the Javelineer’s melee.

    The last, the biggest problem Javlineer’s have, above all else, is ammo and thrown management.

    This is a melee weapon we’re throwing, a beefy stick. Practically a log. It should always be retrievable no matter what. If our ammo was reduced to 3 or 4 on normal javelins, it would be reasonable, since you can retrieve your thrown Javelins from corpses, walls or floors. It would also force Javelineers into melee to sweat out where their Javelins went.

    I personally don’t think Javelins should be availabe at the ammo box, making this an even bigger detriment to lose Javelins. Or, better yet, when you click an ammo box, you only get 1, or 2 javelins.

    Though, for balancing, raising a Javelin should be reverted to its old self. The reasoning is that since reload should be close to intant, only so they can block incoming attacks (thus, medium range), they need a slow down elsewhere. I could understand if you didn’t slow the raise though, if you’re looking for realism.

    We don’t want a little automatic throwing machine, we want a balanced, light, medium to melee ranged unit with the capability to throw his main weapon, and be able to retrieve it so he can fit any scenarios, instead of only fitting ammo box maps.



  • Those are some interesting thoughts. I think keeping the buckler is elementary as a downside the way things are now, but I’d rather reserve my judgement until the rapidfire spear-launching with no deadzones is reverted.



  • Maybe the reason you can’t always get your ammo back is because they’re just so wedged in the corpse, it’s too hard for the user to pull out… :)



  • A fair and well written take on javelins :)



  • @Slaughtervomit:

    Maybe the reason you can’t always get your ammo back is because they’re just so wedged in the corpse, it’s too hard for the user to pull out… :)

    Just use some spit and stop notching your Jav’s. The Short Jav’s design is one you can pull out easily.
    Or design the tip like the Vanguard’s spear by having little stoppers, so only the Jav’s head goes in.



  • I’d love for throwables in general to be recoverable more often, but I honestly think it might be an engine issue or tough-to-squash bug. So you’re primary change really isn’t up to the devs.



  • Maybe.

    Also, I missed the fact that being hit while reloading causes you to reload twice, and that when you feint you reload instead of lower your spear. Not sure if balance, or sneaky bug.



  • Meh, I like javelins right now. the buckler is bad for blocking, but I love it’s super fast and blunt damage overhead bash. If any buff is NEEDED, I would just increase the stab’s reach for the default javelin.



  • interesting… but you have to consider that the javelin is now a 1 hit kill on archers, and i think even MAA. The first javelin which i think is called the javelin lol … you can 1 shot an archer in the foot… IN THE FOOT, okay? So they are 1 hit kills on archers, they are also 1 hit kills on MAA… and i believe 1 hit kills on vanguard to the head, and 2 hits to knights head…

    So they definitely seem to have their niche as a archer, maa killing machine. I’ve been able to gather my jav’s and throwables pretty well as long as i know where the heck they went. You cannot pick them out of walls and stuff i’ve noticed, at least for non-jav throwables.

    The buckler is bad for blocking, but they gave it to the flail knight too. If both these characters were given too much though, they would become OP. Say you gave a kite shield to the knight with the flail instead? He’d be whoopin some major butthurt buttholes.

    Nah i think the jav guys are pretty well balanced. they have speed, they have melee and ranged attack, their ranged is very strong/powerful. but they lack armor and defense… i think it’s nicely balanced now actually.



  • The most issue I’ve ever had as a Javelin class is throwing the actual things.

    As per melee, they have a great stab and the shield works fine if you know how to use it. The low ammo count, however, is pretty brutal; but makes up for the insane damage Javelins can do. I sort of wish the Warbow got the same treatment.

    Also, if you want to get technical, the Heavy Javelins could not, or rarely be, recovered. They’re very similar to the Roman Pilums which were designed to bend or become otherwise unusable after throwing.



  • @Doom454:

    The most issue I’ve ever had as a Javelin class is throwing the actual things.

    As per melee, they have a great stab and the shield works fine if you know how to use it. The low ammo count, however, is pretty brutal; but makes up for the insane damage Javelins can do. I sort of wish the Warbow got the same treatment.

    Also, if you want to get technical, the Heavy Javelins could not, or rarely be, recovered. They’re very similar to the Roman Pilums which were designed to bend or become otherwise unusable after throwing.

    You’re aware the buckler is a melee shield though, and that it blinds you more than the Kite Shield or the Heater Shield (both vastly superior). Buckler’s more equal to the tower shield; really good in 3rd person, terrible in 1st. Especially for Jav’ dude’s, 'cause when jumping it covers half your screen (I jump a lot).

    That’s an interesting point, if you throw a javelin at an enemy javelineer, can he pick it up? Not a terribly huge deal in this game though, since no on but javelineer can wield.



  • I feel as if javelins are a bit overpowered right now;

    you can sprint whilst throwing them (that’s a huge factor)
    they do massive damage
    quite fast to throw
    melee attack (plus bonus backstab damage)
    a shield, and the ability to also shield-bash

    the only downsides are the ammo situation and the squishiness of the class - but with the few javelins that you have you completely dominate… but that’s just my experience anyway



  • If you really think the buckler is a detriment, then feel free to pick a different weapon and leave it to players like me who appreciate the little shield for the godsend it is.

    Seriously, cudgel + buckler feels like playing superman compared to cudgel + nothing.



  • Javelineer/Pellatist is in a good place.
    Historically some javelins were designed to be only thrown once (see roman javelins) so that they could NOT be thrown back!
    The main problem with Pellatists is that MAA and some knight attacks go straight through good, clean, blocks. Also at times i strike people first with the buckler attack (at close range) and it does not register which is pretty unfair because the enemy follows with their attack and many attacks will 1shot a pellatist and that is a significant penalty when you’ve done nothing wrong.
    A lot of people think that the pellatist is not viable, however, once you get the hang of them they can be very rewarding.

    With all respect i think OP should spend more time on the Pellatist. Your observations are not entirely correct.



  • @TheCheekyTree:

    I feel as if javelins are a bit overpowered right now;

    you can sprint whilst throwing them (that’s a huge factor)
    they do massive damage
    quite fast to throw
    melee attack (plus bonus backstab damage)
    a shield, and the ability to also shield-bash

    the only downsides are the ammo situation and the squishiness of the class - but with the few javelins that you have you completely dominate… but that’s just my experience anyway

    Well if you read the op, I was actually looking at logical fixes to what seems to be a pretty silly class right now, in role, function, and viability.



  • @RushSecond:

    If you really think the buckler is a detriment, then feel free to pick a different weapon and leave it to players like me who appreciate the little shield for the godsend it is.

    Seriously, cudgel + buckler feels like playing superman compared to cudgel + nothing.

    I’m sorry, I’ll select the Heater Shield for my Javelineer then.



  • @giantyak:

    Javelineer/Pellatist is in a good place.
    Historically some javelins were designed to be only thrown once (see roman javelins) so that they could NOT be thrown back!
    The main problem with Pellatists is that MAA and some knight attacks go straight through good, clean, blocks. Also at times i strike people first with the buckler attack (at close range) and it does not register which is pretty unfair because the enemy follows with their attack and many attacks will 1shot a pellatist and that is a significant penalty when you’ve done nothing wrong.
    A lot of people think that the pellatist is not viable, however, once you get the hang of them they can be very rewarding.

    With all respect i think OP should spend more time on the Pellatist. Your observations are not entirely correct.

    Oh okay then. Do you suggest we keep things the way they are, and summon more ammo boxes for every game type then? More ammo boxes TB, kgo. Everywhere.
    With all respect, blocking attacks really isn’t a problem for me.
    If it takes a bullshit mechanic like ammo boxes to make us viable, I’d rather Javelins didn’t exist.



  • @DeminRamst:

    I’m sorry, I’ll select the Heater Shield for my Javelineer then.

    You’re missing the point.

    The buckler is a good thing, and a major reason why this setup works. With it, you don’t drop dead to anyone who bothers to press Q, and it allows you to quickly punish enemies that accidentally (or purposely) miss an attack. Demanding the option to not use it is like a knight demanding to fight with no armor. The only disadvantage is not being able to attack as quickly after blocking, but that really doesn’t matter when your attacks are so fast and weak anyway.

    The solution is either to learn to love it (as you will, when you fight experienced players) or play a different kind of archer.



  • @RushSecond:

    @DeminRamst:

    I’m sorry, I’ll select the Heater Shield for my Javelineer then.

    You’re missing the point.

    The buckler is a good thing, and a major reason why this setup works. With it, you don’t drop dead to anyone who bothers to press Q, and it allows you to quickly punish enemies that accidentally (or purposely) miss an attack. Demanding the option to not use it is like a knight demanding to fight with no armor. The only disadvantage is not being able to attack as quickly after blocking, but that really doesn’t matter when your attacks are so fast and weak anyway.

    The solution is either to learn to love it (as you will, when you fight experienced players) or play a different kind of archer.

    I understand from your post you don’t know how much better the other shields are. You’re just not comparing the buckler to anything else, that’s your problem.

    Let’s compare it with parry for example.

    Parry = a feints worth of stamina drain (unless dagger, lol), block on a buckler = the same drain, but that only applies to 1 handers. Blocking a 2h drains with buckler, significantly more (extreme example: block with buck a charge attack, knocks off about half your stamina bar).
    Parry has a counter-attack, buckler has shield drop animation.
    Parry allows full vision at all times (incl. jumping), bucklers blocks vision when not sprinting, when blocking and when jumping.
    Feints work on bucklers just as well as parry, so there’s no excuse there…
    Parry has a small hit box, buckler has the same hitbox, but also caps your mouse speed when blocking.

    Are you getting an idea of what I’m saying?



  • @DeminRamst:

    The last, the biggest problem Javlineer’s have, above all else, is ammo and thrown management.
    since you can retrieve your thrown Javelins from corpses, walls or floors. It would also force Javelineers into melee to sweat out where their Javelins went.

    this is a great idea man


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