Flail is too weak/slow, should increase strength or speed



  • I haven’t played with it since beta… but now that you mention it, no one else has either. It was freaking amazing in beta, you swung, hit, they died, lol. I personally did not have a hard time blocking it, no harder than some of the hatchets and blunt weapons, but I guess some people did…

    I don’t like using it because it’s not versatile, I prefer something with a stab and range.



  • I experimented with draw_tracers and you can infact do a 360 degree swing with the flail if you mouse-drag in the direction of the swing. I can’t see any way this could be useful considering the shit range, but I have also been able to go 10-0 in duel servers 2 times using flail and heavy flail. They’re pretty shit, but a good player can still kick ass with them. Polehammer needs more range as well.



  • Heavy flail’s strength should be buffed. Increasing it’s overhead blunt base damage from 70 to 85 would allow it to reliably two-shot vanguards and knights to the torso.
    This isn’t a bad idea considering that flails have the shortest range of all the knight primaries and the heavy flail has the second slowest swing times of all the knight primaries.

    As for the normal flail, I think the windup and combo speeds should get a notable buff to create a sufficient role gap between it and the heavy flail.
    Heavy flail focusing on high alpha damage while the normal flail focuses on speedy swings.



  • I find heavyflail good enough, its the buckler which lacks, you can literally hit or shoot right through middle of it. Have tested this with my mate, buckler is bugged badly



  • Well it would be nice to be able to do more than overhead, the shield bash is useless, what a shame that they penalize players who have played AOC and loved the knight and flail with a shield bash . I mean really? There’s only one powerful swing with the flail, unless you click spam overhead, which is what this game has become anyway. Double hit click spam, but still that shield bash should be replaced with a better swing. That’s a huge downgrade, from 360 to a weak shield bash that’s quite useless. It’s somewhat insulting to make such a fun class from AOC to this joke.



  • @Ludofin:

    I find heavyflail good enough,

    Except that it isn’t.
    As an example let us compare the slash and overheads of the warhammer and heavy flail, both are one-handed blunt weapons only available to knights and both can be used with shields.

    Heavy flail:
    _Slash attack - 65 Blunt Damage - 0.6s windup - 0.7s combo - 0.6s release - 0.7s recovery
    Overhead attack - 70 Blunt Damage - 0.6s windup - 0.7s combo - 0.6s release - 0.7s recovery
    _
    Warhammer:
    Slash attack - 75 Blunt Damage - 0.45s windup - 0.6s combo - 0.5s release - 0.75s recovery
    Overhead attack - 80 Blunt Damage - 0.45s windup - 0.65s combo - 0.5s release - 0.75s recovery

    As you can see, the only thing the heavy flail is better at is a slightly faster release and 0.05s less recovery - this does not outweigh the significantly shorter reach, less damage, notably slower windup and slower combo speeds compared to warhammer.
    Lastly, flails cannot be used without a shield and you are forced to use the smallest of them all; the buckler.
    @Ludofin:

    its the buckler which lacks, you can literally hit or shoot right through middle of it. Have tested this with my mate, buckler is bugged badly

    The buckler has a huge obstructive viewmodel in first person which is very frustrating considering it is the smallest shield in the game.



  • I dont play buckler guy in first person, so visibility isnt problem for me, I can understand it is in 1st person though. Problem for me, is that we LITERALLY tested the shield and my friend could occasianally swing just through middle of it AND shoot arrows through middle of it. Tested, had stamina and shield positioning right, still lets hits through and arrows, now and then.

    Of course flail isnt as powerful as it could be, but for me it seems okish weapon, its really fun weapon to use, and in my experience I can do just fine with it in 1vs1 (minus the bugged buckler which ruins the whole flail thing anyways…) just isnt for mass fights.



  • Yeah, there really isn’t any good reason to use the flail, save for its ghostly ability to be unpredictable.



  • @AtomicKaiser:

    Yeah, there really isn’t any good reason to use the flail, save for its ghostly ability to be unpredictable.

    Yet it’s not really unpredictable…



  • @Magnificent:

    @AtomicKaiser:

    Yeah, there really isn’t any good reason to use the flail, save for its ghostly ability to be unpredictable.

    Yet it’s not really unpredictable…

    You obviously didn’t comprehend what I wrote. “Ghostly ability”- meaning its not there….



  • @wildwulfy:

    The Flails were decent in Beta Patch, but too many QQ’s from inexperienced who had not yet trained how to counter and just went on whining caused the Flail to get nerfed down to nothing, its very hard to use for a low reward. You are better off using a mace.

    This is exactly why devs need to stand more firmly around things and ease their games away from being popularity contests. Not everything is going to seem as effective as it really is on all levels.



  • My personal opinion about the Flail and Heavy Flail, maybe you don’t care but still ^^

    Since the patch, I used it non-stop, I think flails are absolutly badass and I was eager to explode some pathetic fools’ heads with it. I used it 25+ hours since patch release and let me tell you… It’s awful. First, for an unknown reason, using flail makes you slow… SLOW! Even slower than a knight carrying a tower shield, unbalanced but bearable.
    Second, damage. It’s too low for a weapon which is described as “deal massive cruching power” (for heavy flail). Damage on the normal flail is fairly good, but speed still lacks (though IMO, dont change the stats of the weapon, just let the knight move at the same speed than with other sets it’ll be allright)
    Third:
    @lordputman:

    Also it seems like the knight takes less hits when using the flail

    I thought I was the only one having seen that! I asked a lot of ppl and they told me I was crazy… BUT I’M NOT! There IS some kind of “bug” in this mechanic wich makes the knight less resistant to damages than when using different sets.
    Fourth, the shield. Don’t worry, I won’t even talk about “that shield is obstructing vision” or “it plainly sucks” or “We are forced to use this one” because I don’t agree: It obstructs vision but it is so fast to move in and out, it doesnt matter, it doesn’t suck when you use it right and I dont care about other shields.
    @Ludofin:

    is that we LITERALLY tested the shield and my friend could occasianally swing just through middle of it AND shoot arrows through middle of it. Tested,

    THIS is the real problem with the shield, I have not “TESTED” it, but I used it enough time to say: “WTF?? A DIRECT SHIELD HIT AND I RECEIVE DAMAGES??” I died countless times to direct shield hits.
    Other than that, my recomandations are:

    • Give normal mouvement speed to this set
    • Check out this “Knight receives less damage before dying” with this set
      • Damage on Heavy Flail / + Speed on Flail
    • Repair the buckler
      Those four simple points will make the flails balanced and usables–
      Tell me what you think


  • The visibility isn’t too bad but for being one of the smallest if not the smallest, I think it should at least give you better visibility if you’re gonna make it so easy to slash around. I seem to get hit too when someone pokes right in front of me lol and I just hold the shield up. I also wish it would just stun enemies more, after all it’s a mace-like weapon, it should freeze up people who hit rather than exchange. It’s really hard to just keep exchanging hits when the weapon is so much weaker than most.

    I still play it because it’s fun but it’s also hard to counter with it too because often times you get stunned by blocking with the shield and before you get to the enemy he can spam a second hit on you. So even if you get close you still get stunned which slows your ability to get closer for a hit.

    If the only change would be to actually stun enemies when they get hit so you don’t end up exchanging most of the time, it would surely help but it still needs either speed and/or strength increase. Especially when we have to sacrifice length, speed, damage, and only have one option as shield. There’s gotta be something in exchange for all that tradeoff and not just the falsely claimed hard to block swings.



  • @[Necro:

    Prime]My personal opinion about the Flail and Heavy Flail, maybe you don’t care but still ^^

    Since the patch, I used it non-stop, I think flails are absolutly badass and I was eager to explode some pathetic fools’ heads with it. I used it 25+ hours since patch release and let me tell you… It’s awful. First, for an unknown reason, using flail makes you slow… SLOW! Even slower than a knight carrying a tower shield, unbalanced but bearable.
    Second, damage. It’s too low for a weapon which is described as “deal massive cruching power” (for heavy flail). Damage on the normal flail is fairly good, but speed still lacks (though IMO, dont change the stats of the weapon, just let the knight move at the same speed than with other sets it’ll be allright)
    Third:
    @lordputman:

    Also it seems like the knight takes less hits when using the flail

    I thought I was the only one having seen that! I asked a lot of ppl and they told me I was crazy… BUT I’M NOT! There IS some kind of “bug” in this mechanic wich makes the knight less resistant to damages than when using different sets.
    Fourth, the shield. Don’t worry, I won’t even talk about “that shield is obstructing vision” or “it plainly sucks” or “We are forced to use this one” because I don’t agree: It obstructs vision but it is so fast to move in and out, it doesnt matter, it doesn’t suck when you use it right and I dont care about other shields.
    @Ludofin:

    is that we LITERALLY tested the shield and my friend could occasianally swing just through middle of it AND shoot arrows through middle of it. Tested,

    THIS is the real problem with the shield, I have not “TESTED” it, but I used it enough time to say: “WTF?? A DIRECT SHIELD HIT AND I RECEIVE DAMAGES??” I died countless times to direct shield hits.
    Other than that, my recomandations are:

    • Give normal mouvement speed to this set
    • Check out this “Knight receives less damage before dying” with this set
      • Damage on Heavy Flail / + Speed on Flail
    • Repair the buckler
      Those four simple points will make the flails balanced and usables–
      Tell me what you think

    I completely agree with your recommendations, and I do understand how few devs there are, but so far they have showed that they listen to people, the poll for the new weapons as I checked showed flail as favorite, and generally people want it looked at or changed…so I think you see what needs to happen.



  • I hadn’t played the Beta so I was pretty excited to try the flail when the update was released. What a disapointment!

    Of all the shortcomings, the one that annoys me the most is the fact that you can’t run with them. This is nuts. I am very curious to know how a knight carrying a big heavy sledgehammer can run faster than one carrying a relatively small flail? Who thought this up? In any case, it was a terrible decision in my opinion.

    The second most annoying thing is the shield. Why the heck can’t they just use normal shields and throwing weapons?

    I think if they fix these two things it might actually be fun to use. If you are only going to change one thing, at least allow them to run at normal speed. As it is now, it is one of the most rarely used weapons, because it flat out sucks, and I think that is a shame. I’m at level 35 and I like to use all of the knight and vanguard weapons; with the exception of the flail, that is. It just drives me nuts that I can’t run normally when using it.

    In closing, please give the flail some love in the next update; make it something people actually like to use.



  • @Sir:

    I think if they fix these two things it might actually be fun to use. If you are only going to change one thing, at least allow them to run at normal speed.

    Knight running speed with flail is the same as any other weapon. It’s just that the sprint animation with the flail equipped looks like a powerwalk than a running pace.

    If you don’t believe me feel free to test by sprinting beside another knight in a straight line. Make sure it’s another knight because each class has different sprint speeds.
    @Sir:

    As it is now, it is one of the most rarely used weapons, because it flat out sucks, and I think that is a shame. I’m at level 35 and I like to use all of the knight and vanguard weapons; with the exception of the flail, that is. It just drives me nuts that I can’t run normally when using it.

    In closing, please give the flail some love in the next update; make it something people actually like to use.

    I agree, flail sucks. Warhammer does the flail’s job much better; it’s faster, deals more blunt damage & has more reach. It also has more utility as it can be used with kite or tower shield or by itself.
    As for the buckler, devs have agreed that it blocks too much vision and it needs a change.



  • Knight running speed with flail is the same as any other weapon. It’s just that the sprint animation with the flail equipped looks like a powerwalk than a running pace.

    Well, if that is true I don’t understand the decision of changing the animation to look like a walk instead of a run. Since the game doesn’t have a speedometer, it’s hard to tell exactly how fast you are going, but having the animation look like a walk certainly makes it ‘feel’ like you are going slower. Pretty strange design decision if you ask me. I mean seriously, who sat there in the design meeting and said: “Guys, what I want to do is change the sprinting animation for knights using the flail to look like a walk instead of a run. I don’t actually want him to move slower, I just want to make it look like he’s moving slower; I bet it’ll confuse the hell out of the players. Does that sound like a good idea to you?” If I would have been in that meeting, my answer would have been “No, no that does not sound like a good idea. How about if we just have the sprint animation look like a sprint; what do you think?”

    I’m not going to make an argument for changing the speed, reach, and damage model of the weapon; that will just require extensive playtesting to get the balance right. As far as the buckler goes, it’s ok to have that as an option, but let the guys use normal shields and throwing weapons if they want to. The way it is now just doesn’t make sense. Un-neuter the flail, give him back his balls!



  • After some testing with the heavy flail at different distances against a wall, I discovered that it’s slash and overhead range is actually equivalent to that of a broadsword - it has decent range but it is completely misrepresented by the reach stat bar than any other weapon is (12%).

    Regardless, it is still underpowered. For such an excessively long windup time for a single handed weapon, it’s damage is underwhelming.



  • I agree, making the speed or the dmg higher would make this thing feel like I wan to use it. Right now as it is there really is no use in using it to some of the other weapons. :(



  • I think the flail should have a similar animation to the sling, you spin it around and the longer you spin the more damage it does.


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