Citadel is too easy to defend!



  • Having had a lot of experience with this map since the patch, both on and off the defense side, having gotten past the first point and played to the last a few times, I say that a consensus has appeared: almost everyone that’s ever played this map thinks it’s way too easy for Mason to defend the first point. People who’ve never seen the map before are enamored by how cool it looks, while those of us who play it often groan and know already that the red team is virtually guaranteed to win. If the blues get past the front, the reds congratulate them and are just happy to be able to see the rest of the map for once.

    The main problem is that Masons spawn directly on the top of the wall, right next to the parts they have to defend, and the Agathians spawn what seems like half a mile away, and to get to the wall, they have to run through a series of hills containing pitfalls that you won’t know about until the last minute, so you have to know the layout of the map and know how to go around, or else get injured before you even see any enemies. It makes timing pushes difficult, and almost guarantees that the entire red team will be alive and ready to defend their ballistas, while the blue team trickles in helplessly, unless they are MUCH better coordinated. It’s so easy to defend that if the blue team gets past the first point, the masons will lose, not because the rest of the map is unfairly imbalanced in favor of Agatha, but because the Agathians had to be a much better team than the masons to get past the front.

    Not only is the red spawn so close to the ballistas, but both ballistas are in plain sight of each other with no cover, so anyone with a ranged weapon (i.e. a single archer) can defend both ballistas while standing at either one. To add insult to injury, if you get hit while aiming a ballista, you’re knocked off and get locked out of attacking or blocking, leaving you a sitting duck for anyone else that might come along, and leaving you totally unable to get rid of the person that attacked you.

    This map is beautiful and very unique, and the rest of it is so good that I often see the masons let the agathians win the first part, just so they can see the rest of the map. It’s too bad that this matter is no easy fix – the map itself would have to be altered. Perhaps the easiest band-aid fix would be to add a longer respawn timer for Masons on the first point, but nobody would enjoy that. I love the rest of Citadel, and it would easily be my favorite if not for that blasted first point.



  • Totally agree with every argument, they really need to do something…
    Maybe changing the Agatha part of the map, making it smaller for reach the walls more quickly.
    Or changing the Masons Respawn putting then onto the ground level. i Think both need to be done :)



  • To add to your point:
    Not only can archers watch over both ballistas, but they can also shot someone using the ballistas OUT OF SPAWN …
    This is a 100% unbreakable block if u dont have anything to throw.

    also on the
    blue side 80% walking 20% fighting
    red side 80% waiting 20% fighting. Zzzzzzzzzz
    the 2 partys should mix somewhere in the middle of the map. TBS already did a great job on other maps balancing the walkways thats why I can’t understand this disaster map.



  • I’ve mentioned what I think can be done to improve this map in another thread and I can’t be bothered typing it all again so I’ll only say this.

    Mason’s, when they respawn, should have to make their way up from the ground level and onto the ramparts via the stairway, just like everyone else.

    None of this, already spawning on the wall shit.



  • I’d like to point out while this is correct, the rest of the points after the walls are too hard to defend. Mason spawns need to be put closer at all other objectives, but they need to be farther on the first.

    Arguably, the first objective should be the easiest to get in any map, because then it guarantees at least some motion in the battle. Stonewalls at the first objective are even less fun than stonewalls at the second or third.

    Objectives ought to scale up in difficulty, methinks.

    @DokB:

    I’ve mentioned what I think can be done to improve this map in another thread and I can’t be bothered typing it all again so I’ll only say this.

    Mason’s, when they respawn, should have to make their way up from the ground level and onto the ramparts via the stairway, just like everyone else.

    None of this, already spawning on the wall shit.

    Spot on. But with this change, there needs to be some help for the Masons in the rest of the map.



  • O without a doubt the main issue with the attckers of this map for the first point is the spawn point is far too far away. It takes far too long to run up into battle distance. This gives the defenders a great advantage.

    For every second an attacker is not in the fight the defender may as well be 1 player up.

    So mechanically the defenders are playing this map with 2-1 odds most of time. No wonder it is extremely difficult for the attackers to win.

    Spawn locations in non identical objective maps are incredibly important to the entire flow of the battle. To just plonk them down somewhere is extremely short sighted.



  • I can’t imagine taking the wall in a competitive match. That said, I’ve yet to fail to win the map as Agatha even once in pubs.



  • How about some more time? Give the attackers an extra minute or two with each accomplished objective. It’s a huge map after all.



  • I also takes a lot of hits to take down the wall.
    I was alone with one of the ballistas, managed to shoot 3 times then i got stopped.
    Second time, I got there, was defended by a teammate, shot 3 more times,thought i’d take it down that time, but nope.

    How many hits does it take to bring the wall down ?



  • Absolutelly agree. The first objective is very frustrating from the point of view of Agathians.

    What about change the way to break the wall? For example with a catapult (have sense because it’s, more or less, a siege) or fire (it’s wood, after all), instead ballistas (looks like a little unreal smash a wood wall with ballista shoots).



  • @Torrenz:

    How about some more time? Give the attackers an extra minute or two with each accomplished objective. It’s a huge map after all.

    The problem with this is, as I mentioned, only the first objective is problematic for the attackers.

    The rest of the objectives are too easy to take for the attackers. Giving them more time for those is silly.

    Citadel isn’t too easy to defend. It’s too easy to defend Citadel’s first objective, and too hard to defend the rest of the map, especially Malric.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the winrate was close to 50% due to this, but it’s still a poorly balanced map that’s singularly decided by capture of the first objective, which is jarring considering how many objectives there are.



  • I agree that Citadel is too easy to defend at first but quickly favors Agatha once you do beat that first objective. A lot of people have offered ideas about part 1. So I’m going to talk about the section where you free slaves, which grossly advantages Agatha, much more so than the other parts of the map (Which are still biased towards Agatha don’t get me wrong, but aren’t as map breaking)

    For this part, Agatha is given numerous routes to reach the otherside of the lava where the majority of the slaves are. As for the Masons, there is no clear indicator of where the slaves are and there are too many slaves spread about the map. Not to mention the map doesn’t really try to push the Masons anywhere, it’s just kind of open. This ensures that the Masons all split up not knowing where to go or what to defend and crumble. There is simply not enough map guidance to push them towards the objective so they end up wandering.

    Choking the map up a bit to give the Masons more pinpoint routes to follow to the slaves is the way I see of fixing this section. Choking up specific areas around slaves to clearly define and limit the massive amount of access/exit routes is also a good way to go about allowing the masons to mount an actual defense around the slaves, and to help the “slaves” indicator on the HUD to mean something.

    As a quick aside, what is with the tiny part of the right side of the map Agatha side, where there is an invisible wall cutting right through the building and against the wall? It doesn’t really lead anyway behind the invisible wall. Just something curious I noted.

    Finally, the map itself looks beautiful. I love the Mason King’s Throne Room, the castle itself is pretty sick looking, and the concept is pretty cool. Just needs some balancing and it’ll be great.



  • @NikolaiLev:

    @Torrenz:

    How about some more time? Give the attackers an extra minute or two with each accomplished objective. It’s a huge map after all.

    The problem with this is, as I mentioned, only the first objective is problematic for the attackers.

    The rest of the objectives are too easy to take for the attackers. Giving them more time for those is silly.

    Citadel isn’t too easy to defend. It’s too easy to defend Citadel’s first objective, and too hard to defend the rest of the map, especially Malric.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the winrate was close to 50% due to this, but it’s still a poorly balanced map that’s singularly decided by capture of the first objective, which is jarring considering how many objectives there are.

    I cannot speak to the other phases as I have not seen anything beyond the first.

    I can say that when half their team can respawn and already be nipping at you from behind, before your first fallen comrade can run back, is pretty gruesome.



  • The maps decided entirely on the first objective.

    If Agatha can break the wall, they win. There’s little to no guidance for the Masons when it comes to the rest of the map and it’s just too big, there’s too many options and too much space to cover even on a 32 player server.

    Defending Malric is somewhat of a joke as well, I’ve seen that end as quickly as 25 seconds, the longest was when I was put as Malric and just put my back to the wall in the far corner of where Agatha spawn and that still only lasted 2-3 minutes before getting slaughtered.

    Two good archers and a few Knights and Vanguards to watch their back and pick off stragglers can bring the first objective to a standstill on D but when it comes down to it, the last 10 times I’ve played it it’s always been a Agatha victory.

    Great players stack to Agatha for the first objective, take it in a fair amount of time by pushing us back into our spawn and bottle-necking us there and then steam-roll right through to victory.

    Any map that forces stacked teams is not a good map.



  • Absolutely true, and this problem exists in other maps as well, most notably battlegrounds.

    I’ve been bitching about this since the game came out:D



  • Alright, I have a bit more time so I’ll offer the suggestions which I wrote in the other thread seeing as we’re discussing how to balance this map.

    Destroy the Palisade

    Agathian’s get a 2-3 second respawn timer, almost instant respawn, to compensate for the long run they need to make each time to get to the wall. Mason’s, when they spawn for the very first time, can spawn along the wall, but after their first death, their spawn room should be moved down to the sides of the bottom of the palisades. Force the Mason’s to get back up the stairway to be able to defend the ballista, it isn’t right that they can sit in spawn as a crossbowmen and forever cover the objective. The room where the ballista’s are held need’s to be larger, it’s crowded with 3 people inside their, let alone when the Agathian’s eventually force their way in there.

    Free the Caged Slaves

    Each of the doorways into the cage rooms has a spiked, wooden barricade in front of them. These can be destroyed after a few hits and allows the Mason’s time to respawn and set up a defensive position. Reduce the number of caged slaves, or better yet, put stronger, multiple locks on each cage, so it’s not just one lock a cage.

    Free the chained Slaves

    Instead of spreading the slaves out over such a ridiculously large area, create “Slave Pits”. Think of it like defending the Treb’s on Hillside as Mason’s. Each point will have a number of slaves, let’s say 6-8 or so. Each “Slave Pit” will need to be fully cleared for a point to be captured. All pits must be cleared for progression onto the next part. Strengthened the chains themselves, so it takes more than one hit to break a slave free from his shackles. Move the Mason spawn closer as well as utilising the large hanging cage over the lava stream. To “free” those slaves in that big hanging cage, a number of locks and mechanisms have to be broken, once broken, the cage falls into the lava, taking anyone unfortunate enough to be standing on top of the cage with them. This is mainly just for comedy factor. :)

    Destroy the throne room doors

    This part is already pretty good I’ve found. It’s fairly easy to defend. Make the door a bit stronger however and make it easier for the Mason’s to get around to the door to defend it. Maybe make it so that all the door’s must be smashed apart instead of just having the damage shared between each one.

    Kill Lord Malric

    This is a nightmare to defend. First, move the Agatha spawn point to the bottom of the stairs at the very least. Remove the stairway at the far back that leads to the back/sides of the throne. There shouldn’t be a way to flank the king. Make Malric A LOT TANKIER. He simply needs it. There is too many routes to defend against so maybe make a few of the stairway entry points into merged ones which limit there exits. Move the Mason spawn point or put it in a position where they can defend their king easier to compensate how hard it is to get back up to the throne and defend.



  • yes, it is so hard to attack on first phase.
    but after that, rest of phases are way to easy for Agatha.

    before that, when I play this map, I always wonder why Mason built their castle in front of active volcano?
    it is very dangerous!



  • @Fresh+Blood:

    yes, it is so hard to attack on first phase.
    but after that, rest of phases are way to easy for Agatha.

    before that, when I play this map, I always wonder why Mason built their castle in front of active volcano?
    it is very dangerous!

    Think of it this way.

    Would you ever want to attack a volcano?



  • I think the volcano is pretty over the top. It has the flavor of something that belongs in some fantasy themed game, not in a gritty semi-historical medieval war game. And, realistically, with an erupting volcano that close by why would anyone even be fighting over the citadel at all? Whoever ends up in possession of it is about to have bigger problems than invaders.



  • And as long as I’m complaining…
    Is it just my monitor / video settings, or does anyone else have a problem with the visibility in this map? There are many places where I can barely tell who is red and who is blue, either due to it being so dim everything looks gray, or else due to red glow cast on everything.


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