In Defence of Feints



  • I don’t precisely know why feints became a hot topic of discussion post-patch - it’s still largely the same system that was present beforehand. They’re certainly not more luck based, they’re definitely not more powerful. To read these forums however, players would have you believe that the entire mechanic is “broken” and that it has turned Chivalry into a guessing game, one where it is much easier to use feints than to defend against them. I can understand why you might feel this way. Maybe you ran into a player that knew your own weapon better than you did. Maybe he felt faster, maybe he was more aggressive, maybe he got that first hit off and you’re badly hurt. Whatever the case, you feel cowed into submission while this opponent feints five times in a row and finishes your life with an overhead. It can certainly feel unfair. However, I would like to call your attention to a simple fact that has escaped the grasp of many (although certainly not all).

    Anyone who is feinting is completely defenceless. Go on. Look at their character model. They are literally flailing their arms around like idiots. They cannot block while feinting, they cannot attack while feinting. The only way they could be more open to having an impromptu lobotomy is if they were facing the wrong way.

    This might sound crazy, but since they’re too busy having a seizure to defend themselves, stab them. I don’t know what weapon you’re using. I don’t know what weapon they’re using. I will say this much - if they’re anything close to each other in speed, if you start an attack while your opponent is feinting, you will hit them first. Moreover, you’ll probably flinch them out, taking no damage. Yes, I know that look down overheads challenge relativity with their speed, but these very attacks are also available to yourself. Whatever attack they are feinting into is also an attack you can use yourself. More importantly, since you started attacking before them, yours will always be faster. With the addition of the alt-slash to the game, almost every weapon now has a fast punisher. Yes, if they land the first hit of a combo of you the difficulty ramps up, but they still have to land that first hit. If you let yourself be hit by it, why shouldn’t you be at a disadvantage?

    I will grant you, knowing the difference between someone starting up a feint train and someone just out to drop something heavy/blunt/sharp (pick one) on your head is a skill that you have to develop. It’s still not a guessing game. Unbelievably, you cannot feint at every point through an attack - at a certain point the attack must be carried out. Even with a look down overhead, reflexes more than meta-gaming is what will save your ass at the end of the day. Instead of blocking at your opponent’s first twitch, hold your nerve and leave it to a little later. There is nothing more satisfying in this game than watch an opponent waste stamina on a feint that achieves nothing. It’s demoralising for him, and a straight advantage to you.

    At the end of the day, there will come times when your opponent’s mind games get the better of you. Maybe you misjudge him, maybe your finger slips. Importantly, every melee class has their own mechanics that you can take advantage of. If you’re Man-At-Arms, try dodging. If you’re Knight, make use of your health pool and trade hits. If you’re Vanguard, use the reach on your weapons to ensure that you start every exchange. Ultimately, however many feints your opponent uses in a row, it can only result in you being hit once.

    Oh, and in case you didn’t realise, you yourself can also use feints. That’s right - and not just to get around someone’s block. You can feint out of an attack to block your opponent’s. You can feint while running after some pesky MAA to make sure your weapon hits flesh instead of thin air. You can feint out of an attack to lure your opponent into an ill-advised counter attack. You can feint just to keep someone guessing, then use exactly none at all. Feint out of combos, feint into combos, feint to scare some archer off a well deserved cliff.

    What would Chivalry without feints be? What would Tekken without low kicks be? What would Rock Paper Scissors be without paper? Without a mix-up mechanic to add personal variations and iterations of weapons and play styles, we’re all essentially either playing our weapons and reach all day long, or using swing dragging to do exactly what feinting does anyway. I’m sure that people enjoy playing with these conditions, variety being the spice of life and all, but having a preference for these should not necessitate removing a balanced component of the game. By all means, add server options in to the game where you can disable it (the more ways people play this game the better) but don’t hate something because you haven’t mastered it yet.

    Keep fighting for priority, be aggressive, don’t take no guff from these swine, and may the best man win.



  • Brilliant. I agree, people are making a big fuss over little.



  • @Digital:

    completely defenceless

    I’m in support of feinting as well, but of all the arguments in favour of feinting this is the one that confuses me the most. Unless your opponent is psychic or you’re hopelessly predictable, ill timed feints don’t mean a damn thing.

    Just add a cooldown and make the feint window shorter than the wind up so reaction times are no longer of the super human variety.



  • @Digital:

    while this opponent feints five times in a row and finishes your life with an overhead.

    Why are you describing people who use feints like they are all idiots? Shocking revelation: not all players who feint are stupid. The fact that stupid players can feint and stupid players do stupid things that let you kill them does not mean that when good players feint they also do stupid things that let you kill them. Nobody good is spamming feint 5 times. Even feinting twice is a bad idea in all but edge circumstances. If your opponent is holding their parry, the correct answer is commit and accel. Feinting twice is just a ton of stamina and a longer vulnerability window to accomplish the exact same thing.

    @Digital:

    if they’re anything close to each other in speed, if you start an attack while your opponent is feinting, you will hit them first.

    And if they don’t feint, then you get smacked in the face. This is the essence of the guessing game everyone is talking about. Your opponent is in windup. They can commit and accel for instant hit (in which case you should parry) or they can feint (in which case you should attack to interrupt). There are no visual signs, because good players feint at the end of windup.

    @Digital:

    It’s still not a guessing game. Unbelievably, you cannot feint at every point through an attack - at a certain point the attack must be carried out. Even with a look down overhead, reflexes more than meta-gaming is what will save your ass at the end of the day. Instead of blocking at your opponent’s first twitch, hold your nerve and leave it to a little later.

    And here’s the problem - you don’t actually understand the implications of the feint and realtime swing/accel mechanics, and sound like you’ve never played against anyone who is any good at feinting. Good feinting is not the thing where you tap lmb/rmb a few times and make your arms seizure and hope your opponent loses his mind. Good feinting is the thing where you windup an attack and feint it the exact instant before windup ends - because you can feint at any point of the windup, including the end. And that works very well for feinting, because thrusts, lookdown oveheads, and even very well-aimed slashes can connect essentially instantly off windup at various ranges because you can put the start of the hit trace inside your opponent. The difference between feint and a real, acceled hit is tens of milliseconds (honestly, it’s probably smaller than your ping). Human reaction speed is a finite thing, and it is not that good.

    Grab a friend and stand a few paces apart, and have him flip a coin to determine a random string of lookdown overheads/feint->lookdown overheads. Or just get on the clan duel servers and look for people with clantags who main 2hers, and have a go at them with a 2her of your own. That is what good feinting looks like.

    @amrtin:

    Brilliant. I agree, people are making a big fuss over little.

    Are you the same amrtin I have never seen play without a shield? Don’t get me wrong, that’s not an insult - shields are fine. But if so: don’t you think that having such a shield heavy playstyle gives you a unique position on feinting? A feint doesn’t force you to waste a well-timed parry. It forces you to reaim your shield. People who don’t have shields (or maa dodge) actually have their entire attempted defense negated by a feint, full stop. They do not get a chance to recover or react, they have to eat the hit (barring amazing footwork and sloppy aim on their opponent’s part). Feints counter parries by ruining their timing. Shields do not have to time their parries.



  • Another supporter of feinting over here.

    I’m a supporter of kicks, alternative attacks, feint, directional block (not implemented on Chivalry, but i will agree with it) or whatever new stuff they will implement to get new skills.

    I prefer a game with feints, tricks, footwork, dodges, ducks, jumps… all that make you feel a real challenge (i have read arguments against all those ways to play), not an annoying parry+slash+parry+slash bullshit.



  • Another supporter of feinting over here.

    I’m a supporter of kicks, alternative attacks, feint, directional block (not implemented on Chivalry, but i will agree with it) or whatever new stuff they will implement to get new skills.

    I prefer a game with feints, tricks, footwork, dodges, ducks, jumps… all that make you feel a real challenge (i have read arguments against all those ways to play), not an annoying parry+slash+parry+slash bullshit.

    Thing is, it would be great if you had to utilize all those things to win fights but in reality there is only one mechanic you need to master and you’ll do just fine; in-fact you’ll have a 50/50 chance to take out the best player in the game with maybe 4 hours of play-time honing your “skill”. You know which mechanic I’m talking about ;)



  • i wish you all to die.

    No one (almost no one) says that cancel attacks need to be out of the game.

    But it need to be FIXED.

    There is NO FREAKING REASON to make impossible to defend attacks exist in a game were people die with 1, 2 or 3 hits.

    THERE ARE NO GOOD PLAYERS FEINTING. There is no such thing as a good player that use feints. That is just a moron trying to be cool.

    From my experience, most feinting noobs have ZERO footwork, ZERO skill at defence and ZERO honor and everything that makes a man a man.

    People complains more of it after patch cause it became OBVIOUS after patch with the Duel mode HOW SHIT the actual system is.

    I am a supporter of kicks too, and of stun when kicking the shield, but just cause you can AVOID it, but you cant avoid feints.



  • DSMatticus

    I’ll preface this by saying that most of your post is based on a faulty premise - that instant attacks are a regular and reliable way to attack your opponent. They’re not. Perhaps if players in Chivalry stood toe to toe with each other and didn’t move, you would have a valid point. Alas, you do not. Moreover, duels in Chivalry do not start this way, with probably the most decisive points of any duel being when the players actually close the distance with each other. This is a complicated process factoring in guesswork, weapon speeds, reach, different attacks and meta-gaming. This bears no relation to the world you have painted of look-down overheads combined with perfectly timed feints.

    For the vast majority of attacks in Chivalry, there is a significant amount of time between the end of the wind-up stage and the attack actually connecting. It varies, sometimes being faster than many can actually react to. I suppose this might be where skill comes into it, but your analysis leaves no room for this. For whatever reason, you are under the delusion that somehow you cannot deal with feinting bar through chance alone, which leaves a poor impression of your skill at this game.

    Lastly, as for the guesswork portion, if you consider human beings to be as random as coins this explains much as to your present difficulties. Even in a single duel, you will see patterns emerge, just as your opponent will see patterns emerge in you. People on full health play differently than people who are on their last legs. People play differently against the grand mace than they do against the sabre. To put all of these understandings, experiences and tricks of the trade under the heading of “blind goddamn chance” is counter-productive to say the least.

    Your chief problem is that you think the current feinting system at some point forces you to mis-parry. My advice to you would be to spend less time theory crafting and more time road-testing.

    I’m in support of feinting as well, but of all the arguments in favour of feinting this is the one that confuses me the most. Unless your opponent is psychic or you’re hopelessly predictable, ill timed feints don’t mean a damn thing.

    If your opponent is a MAA spamming LMB, i’ll timed feints will get you killed.



  • There is NO FREAKING REASON to make impossible to defend attacks exist in a game were people die with 1, 2 or 3 hits.

    We differ on the point of feinting being “impossible to defend attacks”

    THERE ARE NO GOOD PLAYERS FEINTING. There is no such thing as a good player that use feints.

    Have you tried multi-player?



  • @Gríma:

    I prefer a game with feints, tricks, footwork, dodges, ducks, jumps… all that make you feel a real challenge (i have read arguments against all those ways to play), not an annoying parry+slash+parry+slash bullshit.

    You listed 6 things and how they all make the game challenging. This thread is about removing one of them. And yet when you talk about the consequences of removing that one thing, five other things are also gone. Are you a magician? Did you make them disappear with the power of illogical rhetoric?

    Here’s an idea: try finding some people and fighting without feints. See what happens. See if it actually devolves into parry-slash-parry-slash-ad-infinitum.

    @Digital:

    I’ll preface this by saying that most of your post is based on a faulty premise - that instant attacks are a regular and reliable way to attack your opponent.

    Except they are. Completely unsurprisingly, van and knight backpedal slower than they sprint forward, and the person who lands the first hit has absolutely no incentive not to push his advantage on that hit by closing the distance and comboing.

    @Digital:

    Moreover, duels in Chivalry do not start this way, with probably the most decisive points of any duel being when the players actually close the distance with each other. This is a complicated process factoring in guesswork, weapon speeds, reach, different attacks and meta-gaming.

    And this is literally the only interesting part of a feint-laden fight, though it’s just as/more interesting without feints. The part where the players are disengaged and comfortably distanced and trying to land the first hit. The thing that follows the first hit is a feint-sprinkled death combo at close range that sometimes gets interrupted and therefore trades control, allowing the other player his feint-sprinkled death combo, which sometimes gets interrupted, and blah blah blah - two people competitively flipping coins at eachother.

    @Digital:

    Your chief problem is that you think the current feinting system at some point forces you to mis-parry. My advice to you would be to spend less time theory crafting and more time road-testing.

    Pick up your preferred van/knight 2her and take it to the clan duel servers, and look for some of the clan members doing the same. Because I seriously don’t think you’ve seen a high level 2her v 2her fight. Or just add me on steam and we can duel, with or without feints. DSMatticus, same as here. I’m decent enough either way.



  • Digital Fortress, obviously everyone has their own play-styles, no doubt. For example someone may be playing horribly, have the worst style you’ve ever seen in your life but so long as they’ve spent a few hours mastering feinting the chance of you living or dying comes down to CHANCE once they’ve unloaded a feint on you. We’ve already established that it’s impossible to re-actively counter a well timed feint and this sort of power should not be given to newbs, kills should be rewarded to people who outplay their opponent imo.



  • @DSMatticus:

    You listed 6 things and how they all make the game challenging. This thread is about removing one of them. And yet when you talk about the consequences of removing that one thing, five other things are also gone. Are you a magician? Did you make them disappear with the power of illogical rhetoric?

    Remove one thing will do the game less challenging in fact because 5<6, and i don’t agree with it, just my opnion (that’s doesn’t mean that i disagree with some kind of change on the feint mechanics).

    @DSMatticus:

    Here’s an idea: try finding some people and fighting without feints. See what happens. See if it actually devolves into parry-slash-parry-slash-ad-infinitum.

    Not really. It depends on the players way to play, you can use footwork, reverse-stabs… (for example). I have several examples of players.



  • @Gríma:

    Remove one thing will do the game less challenging in fact because 5<6, and i don’t agree with it, just my opnion (that’s doesn’t mean that i disagree with some kind of change on the feint mechanics).

    Wrong, if 1 outperforms the 5 others then its 5>1 not 6>5



  • @Bigamo:

    THERE ARE NO GOOD PLAYERS FEINTING. There is no such thing as a good player that use feints. That is just a moron trying to be cool.

    oh gosh guy
    thanks
    now I’m gonna have the dumbest smile going into class today

    haha
    fuck
    you crazy guy



  • @Grima:

    Remove one thing will do the game less challenging in fact because 5<6

    Problem: feinting isn’t challenging. It isn’t challenging to use, at all. Measuring reach of a sprinting attacker is challenging. It isn’t challenging to defend against, because you have no meaningful input into your own defense - it’s a game of chance, because there are no in-game cues to a feint before it’s far too late. Games of chance aren’t actually a challenge.

    The fact that the removal of offensive feinting will make all of the other more challenging game elements more important will actually add depth, complexity, and challenge to the game.



  • I just don’t like feint spam.

    Feint once or twice, yeah sure that’s fine. But once I’ve parried you and then I see you throw your arms up in the air about five times before deciding to attack me, all while +forwarding me? That’s when it gets bullshit.

    And it’s more about the matter of time that they can feint within. Sure, they run out of more stamina quicker, but it still doesn’t mean you can have the reaction speed to realise that this guy is spamming feint so attack him.



  • The only time fainting can be a problem is when you got a MAA facehugging you and you are unlucky enough to get a little lag.

    You should always block an attack at the wery last moment, if he throws a feint all the way at the end of the swing or whatever, you can block (oh shit he feinted) but you will get another block chance.



  • @DokB:

    But once I’ve parried you and then I see you throw your arms up in the air about five times before deciding to attack me

    Really, who does this? You only need one feint to bypass a well-timed parry. One.

    The only situation I find myself feinting more than once is when I have just landed a hit and am comboing, and he parries super early (right after being hit). I feint to bypass the parry, but because he feinted so early (earlier than the attack, even) I know his parry will be ready again and he’s clearly in panic mode, so I’ll double or even triple feint to try and line up my attack inbetween his panicked parries. And since I only start feinting after an opponent feints at me, that should really say something about the game: there are people who still panic and spam parry yet have incorporated feinting into their attacks. They haven’t even learned how to properly parry attacks yet, and they already have feinting in their arsenal.

    @hitom:

    The only time fainting can be a problem is when you got a MAA facehugging you and you are unlucky enough to get a little lag.

    Hahaha no. At facehug range with anything, you cannot see good feints. You can feint at the end of windup. At facehug range, making attacks connect at the end of windup is trivial. The difference between the two is tens of milliseconds - even if your ping were in the 20’s you literally could not do that at better than chance. Human reaction has a measurable and quantifiable delay. Facehug feints occur in a window smaller than that delay.

    @hitom:

    You should always block an attack at the wery last moment, if he throws a feint all the way at the end of the swing or whatever, you can block (oh shit he feinted) but you will get another block chance.

    No you won’t. The later you parry, the later you recovery from your parry. If you parry very late, the feinter has all the time in the world to smack you with his next attack. And of course if you parry early, you’ve showed him your cards and he can decide to feint right then for the free hit, and your parry won’t come up in time. You basically described this situation backwards.



  • @DSMatticus:

    @DokB:

    But once I’ve parried you and then I see you throw your arms up in the air about five times before deciding to attack me

    Really, who does this? You only need one feint to bypass a well-timed parry. One.

    When does someone do this? They do it whenever I don’t fall for their feint. It’s more about them being able to do it in such a quick time that if you don’t fall for the first feint, then they’ll catch you on the third, or the fifth. Or better yet, when you decide to attack yourself but seeing as they can just stop spamming Q they’ll allow their weapon to follow through and hit you.



  • I haven’t read the whole thread yet but I wanted to point out this fallacy I spotted early on.

    Anyone who is feinting is completely defenceless. Go on. Look at their character model. They are literally flailing their arms around like idiots. They cannot block while feinting, they cannot attack while feinting. The only way they could be more open to having an impromptu lobotomy is if they were facing the wrong way.

    This is incorrect. A player who is feinting can quickly feint to parry leaving them completely safe


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