Vanguards…



  • Well its the van guard i wanne talk about.
    Its op.
    For example.
    Thier weapons is like 200 m long and most of them like 1 or 2 hit.
    Thats not the problem thats realistic.
    Its the atak speed im having a problem.
    Why dont u try in real life u take a normal hamer and swing it a few times then u take a broomstick put a 3kg axe one one side and the try swinging it.
    Its so stupid that zhe pole arm and spear weapons swing the same speed like most of the weapons.
    Also that kind of weapon shouldnt be able to use at close rqnge because u would hit him with the wood wich would maybe even break on a knight armor .
    Also for example u take knights second axe.
    When u r to close just pushes the enemy but with polearm no problem still same dmg.
    Pleas make it weaker.
    The swords r fine but the rest is just like noob tube.
    Sorry for bad english im german



  • Another one of these posts…
    Any vanguard can be easily countered so long as you know the weapon he’s using and what it’s good at. Slash spam vanguards are especially easy to counter - block, then hit with a faster weapon.

    IT’S THAT SIMPLE.

    Please go learn to play in the training mode.



  • OP makes some valid points.

    Hadron……what can I say to you…can anyone say anything with out you telling them to go back to training?

    Oh wait…Ive got a pm that you sent me that fits perfect.

    “You’re a complete dick, y’know that?”



  • OP definitely has a very often posted point, but I don’t see how hadron’s solution solves it. You block the first hit and then you close the distance to hit with a one hander, the vanguard will stab you. If you side step, they will swipe or drag-stab you as you try to cover the even greater distance to them.

    Now this might be more doable in duels, but in every other game mode you are just about doomed if you have a one hander and a vanguard comes at you, especially with a two handed sword. The sheer amount of dancing you have to do to get within range of a two handed spammer is disproportionate to the benefits of a one hander in modes where someone else will come up an kill you after you have been drained of stamina blocking or parrying.

    You’re best hope is to attack first, if you let that vanguard get the first strike you have to block and you only have a short one hander you are doomed without some useful geography.



  • @Octavious:

    OP makes some valid points.

    Hadron……what can I say to you…can anyone say anything with out you telling them to go back to training?

    Oh wait…Ive got a pm that you sent me that fits perfect.

    “You’re a complete dick, y’know that?”

    I agree elitist attitudes are not very chivalrous



  • If you have a one-hander, I assume you’re playing as MAA. If you’re a MAA and you can’t beat a lmb-spamming Vanguard, a class that is under-buffed since the patch, then you need to uninstall and get out.



  • I kill vanguards easy but I wonder how they swing a greatsword faster than a mace.



  • I didn’t say lmb spam did I? No, it was the fact that they can stab quickly and for the same damage as a fully extended swing that I mentioned as the first counter they had to someone closing the distance.

    MeGusta also validly points out that you can be screwed if you have the wrong one hander even if you manage to facehug that vanguard due to your attack taking far more time because of the wind up distances and where a one hander is held compared to a two hander. Mace is going to be harder to get that facehug kill with than say the hand axe.

    I didn’t mention knockback either, which is a handy way to prevent closing the distance too, especially against shield users.

    MAA can do it if you are willing to teleport your way to victory, that is why dodge can’t be removed. Still, on a path with nowhere to dodge but forward or back (like the path to trebuchet 3 and 4 on hillside) you are pretty much doomed if the vanguard knows how to stab.

    If you are trying to do it as say javelineer who is out of spears and is trying to help his team with buckler and shortsword…you’re dead. Though I imagine the snide answer to that is “don’t run out of spears.”

    The typical way a knight using a one hander gets through this issue is by tanking damage.



  • A vanguard is supposed to have a high damage output. Their weaknesses are archers and good MAAs.

    They are the ones that are supposed to punch through the enemy lines and take on multiple targets.



  • Vanguards aren’t that tough… I agree they can be annoying to fight against if they’re skilled, but most vanguards are spammers who are easily countered. Just know when to strike and you’ll be good :)



  • @Slaughtervomit:

    Vanguards aren’t that tough… I agree they can be annoying to fight against if they’re skilled, but most vanguards are spammers who are easily countered. Just know when to strike and you’ll be good :)

    This statement in Unit 1_262 approved. 8-)



  • @Misnomer:

    If you are trying to do it as say javelineer who is out of spears and is trying to help his team with buckler and shortsword…you’re dead. Though I imagine the snide answer to that is “don’t run out of spears.”

    Aside form the occasional stab going through the buckler, which is glitching and not balancing, I beat them most of the time. Yes you shouldn’t throw your last spear, but when I do I have no diminished capacity of killing those VGs.
    Yes they have range, but you actually kill them with two stabs of your shortsword most of the time. But that may be because I actually use the backstab ability the jav can utilize.

    One point in time they are very underpowered (low health/speed, useless special) and a month later suddenly they are OP because they have some more range and damage than an MaA…
    I really get the feeling that people simply do not know how to counter the VG, I have never had any more trouble against the vanguards than against some MaA’s buzzing around me.

    Every class has its strength, you just have to use them well.

    • Make sure you don’t miss an attack (<- How I kill 99% of the people as a VG) since they have more range they will ALWAYS stab you!
    • Make sure you block the first attack and keep moving towards them. Don’t give them a chance to keep the distance (not necessary, but you have to know what you’re doing). When you’re close you do your MaA stuff, when you’re a knight you do the maul stuff. As long as you’re close to them, they lack already one core advantage of the class.
    • Make sure he misses the attack. Hard to do with stabs, but since roughly 70% of the people still use swings this is fairly easy to do. Afterwards sprint in (as MaA) or time well and jump in just after the attack (get to the correct side of the swing so you have some more time until the swing is over). When they stab, use footwork to try to let them miss and you already won.

    It’s tricky to fight against them and these actions are not even necessary to beat them. I just want to show that they actually have some serious weaknesses which can be utilized, comparable to weaknesses every other class has.

    For my personal opinion, as far as I experience the VGs are the easiest class to beat aside from archers refusing to melee.



  • I still don’t know why I see posts like this when knights can do the same thing with their 2hannders except they can tank one or two more hits. I guess one can assume every Vanguard balance thread is stared by a Knight player.



  • This isn’t posted about Knights because Knights are not as mobile. Yes LMB spam with 2 handers is annoying from anyone, but you can close on knights. They don’t know you back, they don’t get a sprint charge, they move a little slower, and they never have the sheer range of a polearm. None of the Knight two handers have this sort of range.

    I think there needs to be more recovery time from 2 handers, the idea that a person behind a shield is going to be more tired than someone swinging a 6 ft sword at them 6 times repeatedly is a bit of a joke. At the very least the time between having a polearm blocked/parried and being able to stab should increase. But that would slow down combat a little which is the greatest sin of all to people on this forum.



  • @Misnomer:

    This isn’t posted about Knights because Knights are not as mobile. Yes LMB spam with 2 handers is annoying from anyone, but you can close on knights. They don’t know you back, they don’t get a sprint charge, they move a little slower, and they never have the sheer range of a polearm. None of the Knight two handers have this sort of range.

    I think there needs to be more recovery time from 2 handers, the idea that a person behind a shield is going to be more tired than someone swinging a 6 ft sword at them 6 times repeatedly is a bit of a joke. At the very least the time between having a polearm blocked/parried and being able to stab should increase. But that would slow down combat a little which is the greatest sin of all to people on this forum.

    The things about the knight are true, but compared to the sheer damage they inflict and the health they possess they can be terribly hard to close with as well. And remember that they also have the MaA primaries as a secondary weapon.
    The sprint charge is useless anyway (except for unaware targets), the speed of the footwork of the enemy does not really matter when you want to close in. The knight and the VG have both slow enough footwork to close the distance. Also a knight can incur five hits while the VG can only take two.
    I don’t see why the VG are so overpowered. I really think you grant the range of the weapons too much weight in your considerations. Range is not everything, especially if you know how to fight them.

    The whole idea behind the parry system versus the block system is in the name. With the shield you incur all the energy of the attack and thus you have to use force. A parry is more of a guided miss where you don’t block the attack, you just steer it away from your body.
    It is perfectly balanced to be honest. You have the ability to ignore any feinting and don’t need to time any block (protection from multiple weapons!). But you do have some speed and stamina penalties so you are not impervious and can simply turtle everything.
    If that’s not balanced for you, I don’t know what is…



  • Well you can go to the shield discussions for that…you can’t turtle anything, you lose your vision, and you lose stamina. Then you have to try to close the distance because you have been knocked back…so you charge forward only to have to lose vision, stamina, and distance again when the next stab comes.

    It is clear that some people on this forum simply don’t like shields so any actual use of them is “turtling.” Why shouldn’t a buckler be able to knock a weapon aside like a parry? That is how it is actually used (even in its small round shield chivalry form it should be a deflect and bash device). People seem to use turtling as an excuse to nerf all shield offensive capabilities.

    Realistically, if I blocked away a spear I would then be on the inside of its damage area and pulling it back to stab again would be nearly impossible before getting hit. But apparently the nearly immediate reset of Vanguard weapons is necessary to keep the pace of play?

    The other thing that truly pisses me off about vanguards is how hard it is to truly dodge their attacks. The fact they can constantly readjust their aim without losing any damage is just silly. I can sidestep a stab, but he can turn it into me from the side and get 100% damage even mid lunge.

    The reality is that vanguards rarely commit to pitched battle. They can backpedal as they stab and still get 100% damage, they can redjust their aim even mid lunge for 100% damage, or they can take helicopter weapons and go into third person and just keep swinging to keep enemies at more than an arm length.

    I would be fine with vanguard damage and abilities as they are if they simply were required to commit to an attack, 50% damage penalty at least for changing direction during a stab or overhead and longer recovery time for slash (I would actually like to try this on all two handers).



  • LOLs and you can say this honestly after the patch?



  • If you are having problems with vanguards in particular then you need to vary your game style and play with some different weapons. They have fairly low HP and no shields. Consider those disadvantages.

    I always chuckle when a vanguard thinks he can trade blows with my maul… 8-)



  • @Misnomer:

    Well you can go to the shield discussions for that…you can’t turtle anything, you lose your vision, and you lose stamina. Then you have to try to close the distance because you have been knocked back…so you charge forward only to have to lose vision, stamina, and distance again when the next stab comes.

    It is clear that some people on this forum simply don’t like shields so any actual use of them is “turtling.” Why shouldn’t a buckler be able to knock a weapon aside like a parry? That is how it is actually used (even in its small round shield chivalry form it should be a deflect and bash device). People seem to use turtling as an excuse to nerf all shield offensive capabilities.

    Realistically, if I blocked away a spear I would then be on the inside of its damage area and pulling it back to stab again would be nearly impossible before getting hit. But apparently the nearly immediate reset of Vanguard weapons is necessary to keep the pace of play?

    The other thing that truly pisses me off about vanguards is how hard it is to truly dodge their attacks. The fact they can constantly readjust their aim without losing any damage is just silly. I can sidestep a stab, but he can turn it into me from the side and get 100% damage even mid lunge.

    The reality is that vanguards rarely commit to pitched battle. They can backpedal as they stab and still get 100% damage, they can redjust their aim even mid lunge for 100% damage, or they can take helicopter weapons and go into third person and just keep swinging to keep enemies at more than an arm length.

    I would be fine with vanguard damage and abilities as they are if they simply were required to commit to an attack, 50% damage penalty at least for changing direction during a stab or overhead and longer recovery time for slash (I would actually like to try this on all two handers).

    I just responded to your issue with the shield stamina, so it is weird to then refer me to another discussion… then don’t mention it if you don’t want to discuss it. Also you place me in a box with people I do not agree with.
    As I stated: The shields ARE balanced to no shields. Placing me with people who want to nerf shields more is just pathetic. Yes you can’t turtle in this game, that’s exactly what I stated as a reason why they are balanced!

    Also talking about realism is kind of aside the point here imho. But in my opinion blocking a spear would not be that disastrous to the spear wielder. You simply retract and stab again, I always thought this was what made them so effective weapons (according to my teacher at medieval arts anyway).

    Your last paragraph is your solution. It is fine if there actually was a problem, but I don’t see one. Yes they can turn while stabbing, but a MaA can keep sprinting while LMB spamming. I don’t see how the one is so much worse than the other. I actually think MaAs running circles are much harder to block than a VG stabbing from a distance.
    I just don’t see how already slow weapons should be nerfed more. They already have their disadvantages (slow, easy to block) and you actually have to commit. When you stab with a spear, the recovery is way longer than any other weapon. So yes it’s fairly powerful, but a miss (which can be likely, it’s a stab and it misses more than swings) means certain death against certain opponents. A knight gets in a lethal kill while a MaA can easily close in and overwhelm.
    So yes I do think that VG need to commit, their recovery times obliges them to.



  • Actually it is really hard to turn while stabbing, the devs purposely nerfed turning speed directly after an attack. What is happening is that they are gaining distance, turning, then attacking which is much faster and more accurate. The only attack that seems to benefit from a 180 turn is the overhead but even that has been nerfed to some degree. Besides if you get suckered into following someone who is clearly setting you up for a 180 attack then you should be more careful or pay the price.


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