OP Aspects of Weapons



  • It would be nice to gather a comprehensive list of the specific parts of specific weapons that the community feels needs tweaking. Here’s a few examples I’ve discovered so far: The Warhammer’s overhead seems to have ridiculous range and do ridiculous damage. Likewise, slash spam with the Warhammer is unblockable a lot of the time. Also, Dane Axe needs a serious looking-at. All people do with it is spam overhead, and like the Warhammer, it has bullshit range and damage on the overhead attack. Dagger face-hugging is almost impossible to counter under the best of circumstances. All I can do sometimes is parry randomly and maybe actually block their dagger after being stabbed 9 times with 5 hp left. At that point I’m dead from a kick. Speaking of kick, it’s slow as a motherfuck since the patch and it’s pretty much useless. Before it was slowed down, I would use it during combat to interrupt their attack, create distance, overwhelm them psychologically, control the fight, hit them into deathtraps, finish them off ect. Now all I do with kick is queue it up, watch my weapon go off-screen as the kick comes in, then take an axe to the face because I’ve left myself open for too long and my kick doesn’t even come out, even though it used up the stamina. The only use for kick in its current state is sneaking up on people and booting them off of high-up places, or jump-kicking.

    Let’s try to get a specific list of combat re-balances we’d like to see started.



  • Kicking is still useful, you just have to be a lot pickier about when to use. When you get into the Attack > Block > Attack > Block swing of things, just throw in a kick and you get a free it. I actually like the new kicks, you just can’t use it as frequently as before.



  • When you get into the Attack > Block > Attack > Block swing of things, just throw in a kick and you get a free it

    Yeah this is what I don’t like. It should have been for held up shields only (the free hit), but because you can no longer block in either daze or special daze, every kick is acting like a special daze right now regardless of whether a shield is involved or not, there is virtually no difference bar 0.1s between daze and special daze. As to the actual slowness of kicks, I think a bug has crept in somewhere, I went third person and tried to see why it was appearing slower despite not actually being slowed down in the config files, and it seems like there’s a small ‘dead time’ between hitting the kick key and the kick starting. I can’t actually compare that to the previous patch though, I never tested it in third person in the previous version, so I can’t really say for sure what the real problem is.



  • @Martin:

    When you get into the Attack > Block > Attack > Block swing of things, just throw in a kick and you get a free it

    Yeah this is what I don’t like. It should have been for held up shields only (the free hit), but because you can no longer block in either daze or special daze, every kick is acting like a special daze right now regardless of whether a shield is involved or not, there is virtually no difference bar 0.1s between daze and special daze. As to the actual slowness of kicks, I think a bug has crept in somewhere, I went third person and tried to see why it was appearing slower despite not actually being slowed down in the config files, and it seems like there’s a small ‘dead time’ between hitting the kick key and the kick starting. I can’t actually compare that to the previous patch though, I never tested it in third person in the previous version, so I can’t really say for sure what the real problem is.

    Definitely should be able to block in daze. Being kicked shouldn’t make you defenseless unless you’re blocking with a shield.



  • To be fair about dagger face hugging… You sorta have to facehug due to the extremely short range on the things ;)

    Most of the issue with dane axe, warhammer, and morning star is that the parry hitbox is at the tip which is much farther out than a lot of weapons… You actually have to look pretty far out to actually parry compared to a 2h sword which you can usually parry looking mid blade or lower even…



  • @Slaughtervomit:

    Most of the issue with dane axe, warhammer, and morning star is that the parry hitbox is at the tip which is much farther out than a lot of weapons… You actually have to look pretty far out to actually parry compared to a 2h sword which you can usually parry looking mid blade or lower even…

    Wow, if this is true this would explain a lot. Those 3 weapons are the ones I have the most issue with when blocking/parrying their slashes - if their tip is deceptively off-centered further than their model shows then these are some serious things that need fixing.

    Didn’t Martin mention there was some command to show the hitboxes and reaches of weapons?



  • I was about to write a lengthy response about my theory as to why the actual weapon model size was completely irrelevant and the parry system only worried about how far the enemy player is away from you (hence why 1-handers appear harder to block than 2-handers, but both are as equally hard to block when they are used at point blank range). Then I decided to try and back up my theory with a video so I got a fellow clan mate to help me record. Well, everything I wanted to theorise on got blown out of the water during recording. Also, to say that you have to look at the tip of the weapon is not entirely true either. In this video, the only time a Halberd actually comes close to damaging me is when I’m almost looking in the opposite direction (and the weapon/player is practically off screen completely). I’m pretty sure this game teaches you to look left for left swings and right for right swings…

    [youtubehd:335id7t0]qoyQvPvTuJ0[/youtubehd:335id7t0]



  • @Martin:

    I was about to write a lengthy response about my theory as to why the actual weapon model size was completely irrelevant and the parry system only worried about how far the enemy player is away from you (hence why 1-handers appear harder to block than 2-handers, but both are as equally hard to block when they are used at point blank range). Then I decided to try and back up my theory with a video so I got a fellow clan mate to help me record. Well, everything I wanted to theorise on got blown out of the water during recording. Also, to say that you have to look at the tip of the weapon is not entirely true either. In this video, the only time a Halberd actually comes close to damaging me is when I’m almost looking in the opposite direction (and the weapon/player is practically off screen completely). I’m pretty sure this game teaches you to look left for left swings and right for right swings…

    [youtubehd:1qrdgenv]qoyQvPvTuJ0[/youtubehd:1qrdgenv]

    I’ve done some of my own tests similar to this and had similar results. I recommend you try it with different weapons, as well as while moving, and perhaps most importantly, on varying terrain.

    Some things get really crazy when the elevation is even slightly off.

    For instance, the ability to block the “lookdown crouch overhead” (i forget which weapons i tested with it) changed a lot from elevation to elevation.



  • I’ve noticed a lot of times when trying to parry bardich overhead, you actually have to look up higher than some other weapons sometimes. I feel 2h swords are the easiest to parry (sometimes no need to really look at even near the tip) Is this intended or just some weird hitbox voodoo with some weapons?



  • The parry mechanics/hitboxes REALLY need some looking at by the devs. There are so many things wrong (especially in facehug range) it is not even funny. …and I didn’t even know that you can block a halberd swing from off screen, lol.



  • Hmm yes that video might explain how a lot of the time people seem to be able parry me when I’m sure they weren’t anywhere near facing my weapon tip.

    Seems like that happens with shields too, I’ll strike someone from behind while they have their heater shield raised and it will often still block the hit.



  • @Oy:

    Dagger face-hugging

    Let’s try to get a specific list of combat re-balances we’d like to see started.

    So you want to nerf the dagger.

    Yes it is so OP…



  • @Slaughtervomit:

    To be fair about dagger face hugging… You sorta have to facehug due to the extremely short range on the things ;)

    Most of the issue with dane axe, warhammer, and morning star is that the parry hitbox is at the tip which is much farther out than a lot of weapons… You actually have to look pretty far out to actually parry compared to a 2h sword which you can usually parry looking mid blade or lower even…

    I agree with you on the length issue, and how you’re forced to continue with the attack. I think what people have an issue with, including myself is the situation where the “facehugger” seems to be clipping almost inside the other player they are wailing on, creating an almost impossible to defend against situation.



  • Indeed. Don’t know if it was fixed or was even an issue but I remember there being some murmurings that stabs with certain weapons in close, particularly the spears, were unblockable due to, well, the weapon going through you. Funny situation when a ranged weapon gets more effective the closer you get.

    Either way this game is in an odd position. I, personally, think blocking and parrying need to be more absolute and rely less on looking at tips of weapons due to the wonky nature of how games with this much control and variables operate, leading to things where I would reliable be able to kick people against walls (before the kick change) and then overhead them with a greatsword almost 100% of the time because, well, where do you block if the tip is going slightly through the wall. And yes, the sword would recoil off the wall at the same time they were getting hit.

    However many people have been building their play and enjoyment off of working around and sometimes borderline exploiting how the game works. Embracing the wonkiness into the core of the game. So if you would make a change such as “ok, forget the tip, if you’re parrying and their weapon clashes with yours in any way it’s going to work” it would change that part of the game significantly. Wiping it out, even.



  • OP, IMHO Just get better…The game is well balanced.

    There are only a few minor issues that i experience and i think these are bugs not issues for balancing.
    Yes, face hugging, dagger swinging, peasants are difficult but good on them for trying ahe? Most of the time their head gets turned to pulp when they try. The only issue i see with this is if the player does clip inside another player which they seem to try to do by face hugging AND bending forwards (which is irritating but can be managed). However, this is the nature of the dagger. The way people are succeeding with the dagger and the new staff is to attack rapidly from wide angles and yes it is hard to parry/block, but that’s the way it is. Just as its hard for a Vanguard to parry arrows.

    @AtomicKaiser:

    …I think what people have an issue with, including myself is the situation where the “facehugger” seems to be clipping almost inside the other player they are wailing on, creating an almost impossible to defend against situation.

    Yes, it is annoying, but you can manage it but hitting the person first with your longer weapon OR by kicking them. That said i think the idea is that if they have surprised you (eg you didn’t see them sneak up on you) they get the upper hand. It would be kind of silly if you snuck up on someone with a dagger and then after the first hit ALL of your other attacks were easily parried.



  • @giantyak:

    IMHO Just get better…The game is well balanced.

    There are only a few minor issues that i experience and i think these are bugs not issues for balancing.
    Yes, face hugging, dagger swinging, peasants are difficult but good on them for trying ahe? Most of the time their head gets turned to pulp when they try. The only issue i see with this is if the player does clip inside another player which they seem to try to do by face hugging AND bending forwards (which is irritating but can be managed). However, this is the nature of the dagger. The way people are succeeding with the dagger and the new staff is to attack rapidly from wide angles and yes it is hard to parry/block, but that’s the way it is. Just as its hard for a Vanguard to parry arrows.

    Can you parry arrows? Didn’t know that.

    Either way, those situations are not parallel at all.

    I think the game has some definite balance issues from a design perspective. Just that a lot of people find fault in things that are fine. I think all this twisting the hitboxes and mechanics into mincemeat will end up staining the game more than helping it since players will have a hard time being able to intuitively discern what is effective and what is not.



  • Double post sorry. :?



  • @Dark:

    I think all this twisting the hitboxes and mechanics into mincemeat will end up staining the game more than helping it since players will have a hard time being able to intuitively discern what is effective and what is not.

    I see you have come over to the intuitive camp. :D

    Agree, the design perspective should be trying to keep things as intuitive as possible to prevent exploits from ruling the day (like clipping into other players). That doesn’t mean that mechanics can’t be touched as long as they move towards making the intuitive feeling correct. That is game design, you have issues making it so the head of a pole axe does the damage instead of the shaft? Well maybe you reduce the damage radius of the swing to make it feel right. That twists a mechanic, but in the right direction.

    I don’t think you need to worry about that when it comes to effectiveness though. In BF3 the M16 was the only weapon to use for a while. Most people had no idea it was because the suppression modifier on it was broken, they just knew it was easier to kill people with it (still is without that bug). So mechanics matter only to a small number of players, the majority are just good at seeing what makes their KDR go up with the least amount of effort.



  • @Dark:

    ….
    Can you parry arrows? Didn’t know that.

    No, actually you can’t parry arrows that was just an illustrative and witty comment. ;)

    But the good news is people use ALL the various weapons and they are as they should be.



  • @giantyak:

    OP, IMHO Just get better…The game is well balanced.

    There are only a few minor issues that i experience and i think these are bugs not issues for balancing.
    Yes, face hugging, dagger swinging, peasants are difficult but good on them for trying ahe? Most of the time their head gets turned to pulp when they try. The only issue i see with this is if the player does clip inside another player which they seem to try to do by face hugging AND bending forwards (which is irritating but can be managed). However, this is the nature of the dagger. The way people are succeeding with the dagger and the new staff is to attack rapidly from wide angles and yes it is hard to parry/block, but that’s the way it is. Just as its hard for a Vanguard to parry arrows.

    @AtomicKaiser:

    …I think what people have an issue with, including myself is the situation where the “facehugger” seems to be clipping almost inside the other player they are wailing on, creating an almost impossible to defend against situation.

    Yes, it is annoying, but you can manage it but hitting the person first with your longer weapon OR by kicking them. That said i think the idea is that if they have surprised you (eg you didn’t see them sneak up on you) they get the upper hand. It would be kind of silly if you snuck up on someone with a dagger and then after the first hit ALL of your other attacks were easily parried.

    HAHAHAHA, get better? I will demolish you and consume your soul. It’s not a matter of ‘getting better’, the game has legitimate weak points and issues that need to be worked out, hence the point of this discussion and the point of the upcoming patch which is aimed solely at bug fixes and polish.

    Yes, it is annoying, but you can manage it but hitting the person first with your longer weapon OR by kicking them.

    Yes, because when I’m being stabbed over and over, I definitely have time to get a swing out of windup and into release, or better yet, launch a delayed-ass kick at them. The daggers were just an example to get the thread rolling anyway, but they can be pretty gay when you’re trying over and over to look at their weapon and parry, and every time you parry they just jam their dagger into your ribs. And yes, we’ll compare wonky, broken hitboxes to impossibilities such as parrying arrows.


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