Stamina bar not really been used



  • On my time enjoy this great game i have noticed so many times that people just run in lmb all the time, now that I dont care about what i do is i hear there char huffing and puffing and yet there able to still throw in 2 swings or a full 3 swing combo even when out of stamina. I figure that its a issue looking into as the stamina bar is how much strength you have and if your out of it you should only be able to swing once or maybe none as a punishment for over doing it with your attacks.



  • I fully agree. It is crazy to see someone come at you with a maul, miss 4 swings in a row and then one hit you the moment you stop dodging and try to attack. Seems like a damage reduction or a slowing of attacks based on stamina would be more useful to reward quick strikes than magically making people unable to parry.

    Whatever solutions are found, I hope the animations are there to support them. Currently the stamina bar is the least intuitive part of the game and seems to have only polar effects a extremes (preventing blocking or combos entirely).



  • @coldkiller:

    On my time enjoy this great game i have noticed so many times that people just run in lmb all the time, now that I dont care about what i do is i hear there char huffing and puffing and yet there able to still throw in 2 swings or a full 3 swing combo even when out of stamina. I figure that its a issue looking into as the stamina bar is how much strength you have and if your out of it you should only be able to swing once or maybe none as a punishment for over doing it with your attacks.

    I think it works that way right now. In fact, I think that’s EXACTLY how it works. When you are low on stamina you cannot combo swing. And if you make contact with a person low on stamina when they are guarding they go into a (currently seemingly broken) special stun state that nets you a free attack. No swings at all would be a terrible crippling side effect that would produce more anxiety and frustration than it’s worth. No one likes to feel completely defenseless and you don’t want two low stamina individuals staring goofily at each other in striking distance. If this were a 1 on 1 game you could balance for more slower pacing but as it is you’re likely going to get blindsided so things need to happen fast.

    What I think could address your issue are more discernible, concrete visual cues. Hearing people huff and puff is cool but requires sound and silence you may not have and it’s also unreliable since stamina can be recovering by the time your ears process what’s going on.

    I think it would be best if they just made it REALLY obvious when someone was low on stamina so you could confidently take appropriate action.

    @Misnomer:

    I fully agree. It is crazy to see someone come at you with a maul, miss 4 swings in a row and then one hit you the moment you stop dodging and try to attack. Seems like a damage reduction or a slowing of attacks based on stamina would be more useful to reward quick strikes than magically making people unable to parry.

    Whatever solutions are found, I hope the animations are there to support them. Currently the stamina bar is the least intuitive part of the game and seems to have only polar effects a extremes (preventing blocking or combos entirely).

    Damage reduction and slower attacks would both be terrible solutions that would create far more issues due to the newly introduced layers of balancing than they would solve.

    A good, solid, super evident visual indicator and MAYBE… MAYBE some tweaks to stamina regain speed at lower stamina levels or a (small) time to wait before stamina regain starts would be far better. We wouldn’t have to worry about this weapon being too effective at low stamina or that one being way more useless at low stamina and you could still work a strat around it.

    As it is you can impress upon a low stamina player with attacks to force a block to get your free hit during the stun (which needs fixing as I said) and exploit their inability to combo swing since they lose that entire layer of the exchange, allowing you to confidently approach and know a second swing isn’t coming.

    If you guys could clearly tell when someone was low on stamina do you think it would be much better?



  • dark symphony you do prove a good point on something more visual then just hearing a char huff and puff saying his out of breath but the thing is you go around try swinging a sledge hammer around and then when your drained out try doing a 3 swing combo like they do in game it just doesnt work like that what is the point of the stamina bar if guys with like short swords mallets ect can still do full 3 shot attacks on me even when there stamina is at 0 i run into it every time i play



  • Just to get a few facts in here:

    When out of stamina, you can

    • not combo. You can, however, attack as normal with single strikes with no penalty.
    • only block or parry once and will be dazed by doing so. A daze makes you unable to do anything for about 1.2 seconds and knocks you back slightly. Almost any weapon will be able to hit you while you are dazed if it started an attack immediately after you became dazed.
    • not jump
    • not dodge
    • not shieldbash or kick
    • sprint as usual

    I would actually like to see some sort of reduced damage when out of stamina like I remember from Age of Chivalry. Currently, it is a very viable option to just get super aggressive when out of stamina because you really do not want to block and get dazed and you can hardly fall back either if your opponent doesn’t let you. This can make it harder than it should to pressure an enemy who mismanaged his stamina. He may could be able to do a desperation move if your health was already really low but not charge at you and do full damage, I think. But this is about the only thing I don’t like with the current system.

    The clues as to whether your enemy is out of stamina can be a bit misleading, especially when he starts to huff but already regenerates his stamina. I try to not rely on it too much because more than once I had a huffing and puffing Man at Arms dodge out of my way when I really thought he couldn’t. But by observing an opponent you can usually tell how well he is stamina-wise and you will be able to tell correctly most of the time once you get some practice.

    I still use stamina, or an enemy’s mismanagement of it, frequently to my advantage, leading him to miss strikes, kick and bash needlessly or dodge around too much. Before the patch I did this even more when there were shield turtles around with a short weapon; I would poke their defense from afar until all their stamina was drained. So I concur and say stamina bar really is used, and used well.

    Other than the small point I mentioned I think the current system is fine.



  • I want to be able to fake huffing and puffing.



  • @Don_Kanaille:

    Just to get a few facts in here:

    When out of stamina, you can

    • not combo. You can, however, attack as normal with single strikes with no penalty.
    • only block or parry once and will be dazed by doing so. A daze makes you unable to do anything for about 1.2 seconds and knocks you back slightly. Almost any weapon will be able to hit you while you are dazed if it started an attack immediately after you became dazed.
    • not jump
    • not dodge
    • not shieldbash or kick
    • sprint as usual

    I would actually like to see some sort of reduced damage when out of stamina like I remember from Age of Chivalry. Currently, it is a very viable option to just get super aggressive when out of stamina because you really do not want to block and get dazed and you can hardly fall back either if your opponent doesn’t let you. This can make it harder than it should to pressure an enemy who mismanaged his stamina. He may could be able to do a desperation move if your health was already really low but not charge at you and do full damage, I think. But this is about the only thing I don’t like with the current system.

    The clues as to whether your enemy is out of stamina can be a bit misleading, especially when he starts to huff but already regenerates his stamina. I try to not rely on it too much because more than once I had a huffing and puffing Man at Arms dodge out of my way when I really thought he couldn’t. But by observing an opponent you can usually tell how well he is stamina-wise and you will be able to tell correctly most of the time once you get some practice.

    I still use stamina, or an enemy’s mismanagement of it, frequently to my advantage, leading him to miss strikes, kick and bash needlessly or dodge around too much. Before the patch I did this even more when there were shield turtles around with a short weapon; I would poke their defense from afar until all their stamina was drained. So I concur and say stamina bar really is used, and used well.

    Other than the small point I mentioned I think the current system is fine.

    yes the system itself is fine but i fine the fact that people can still go after you with a 2 and 3 swing combo even when out of stamina i have seen this while fight number of people big time for MAA where they are just able to keep doging forward at me and keep swining



  • @coldkiller:

    dark symphony you do prove a good point on something more visual then just hearing a char huff and puff saying his out of breath but the thing is you go around try swinging a sledge hammer around and then when your drained out try doing a 3 swing combo like they do in game it just doesnt work like that what is the point of the stamina bar if guys with like short swords mallets ect can still do full 3 shot attacks on me even when there stamina is at 0 i run into it every time i play

    Don’t rely so much on realism as the game is highly unrealistic. If they balanced around realism you would not enjoy the game.

    Some realistic changes:

    -There could only be a maximum 4 players in a game since it’s not realistic to have a bunch of clones running around.
    -You could only sprint for a short amount of time.
    -Everyone would go down like a MAA.
    -Weapons would get stuck in people.

    A lot of those things don’t sound like much fun.

    @gregcau:

    I want to be able to fake huffing and puffing.

    This would be awesome. Especially if they upped the visual indicators of low stamina.

    @Don_Kanaille:

    Just to get a few facts in here:
    I would actually like to see some sort of reduced damage when out of stamina like I remember from Age of Chivalry. Currently, it is a very viable option to just get super aggressive when out of stamina because you really do not want to block and get dazed and you can hardly fall back either if your opponent doesn’t let you. This can make it harder than it should to pressure an enemy who mismanaged his stamina. He may could be able to do a desperation move if your health was already really low but not charge at you and do full damage, I think. But this is about the only thing I don’t like with the current system.

    This would create a balancing layer that would take tons of work and tweaking and lead to very minimal payoff in exchange. You’d no doubt end up having to balance even further how the classes function at low stamina when you start adjusting damage. As it is everyone gets the same hindrances and you have a reasonable expectation of what someone can do.

    If you look at your post it contains some really awesome solutions to the problem you present. You note that due to blocking being so dangerous, an opponent is likely to want to go aggressive instead. This is a major disadvantage since you know that the opponents best options are limited to attacking making them easier to read. In this hypothetical, that eliminates the need to worry about accounting for defense whereas he doesn’t have that option. You can now draw out a swing and NO MATTER WHAT happens as long as you avoid it and move in you have succeeded. He will wither get hit or block and both of those lead to damage for you.

    It’s just a matter of accounting for his situation and exploiting it. Lowering attack power additionally I think would be far too much of a handicap. A lot of low stamina situations aren’t a matter of mismanagement but instead of sustained combat. People should still have an ability to work their opponents even when low on stamina. Just not as effectively. Lower damage would tilt the scales way too far and I don’t want to see vanguards and knights with 2Handers getting outdamaged by a MAA with a 1Hander at ANY time.



  • i think what should be done is the attacked slowed or something cause MAA can still jump forward right into my face and swing at me 2 times before im even able to hit them to cause the stun



  • I think the best way to be able to tell when you’re out of stamina is if you have some slight ‘greyout’ effect (similar to the red effect you see when near death) or blackening of the screen to a degree where it becomes a little bit hard to see as easily. This would simulate someone who is exhausted and also the slightly diminished state of visibility might make people a little more uncoordinated and this would be visible to other players
    Failing this it would be fun to see a range modifier to an attacks accuracy whilst someone is fatigued. eg when someone is fatigued attacks are plus or minus 20% of where the mouse cursor is pointing in the vertical and horizontal plane.
    It would also be very good if fatigued players could NOT accelerate attacks this would be very visible to other players. It wouldn’t be very hard to change the animation in that way -eg the player can attempt to accelerate an attack and the character model turns but the player’s arms and weapon lag behind.



  • @gregcau:

    I want to be able to fake huffing and puffing.

    That would be awesome



  • @Dark:


    This would create a balancing layer that would take tons of work and tweaking and lead to very minimal payoff in exchange…

    You’re being over dramatic it would be very easy to balance, all you have to do is adjust how much stamina each class gets.

    This game is much more realistic then you give it credit for. The game appears less realistic then what it is due to limited animation which makes it harder for people to see how things actually happened, not to mention if you wanted add this degree of realism to the animation you would need three keyboards for all the inputs and eight arms to use them. Its too hard to replicate on a computer/keyboard/mouse how quickly a human can react to a situation and modify actions accordingly. Its easier to just be well read and know whats happening and accept it.



  • @giantyak:

    I think the best way to be able to tell when you’re out of stamina is if you have some slight ‘greyout’ effect (similar to the red effect you see when near death) or blackening of the screen to a degree where it becomes a little bit hard to see as easily. This would simulate someone who is exhausted and also the slightly diminished state of visibility might make people a little more uncoordinated and this would be visible to other players
    Failing this it would be fun to see a range modifier to an attacks accuracy whilst someone is fatigued. eg when someone is fatigued attacks are plus or minus 20% of where the mouse cursor is pointing in the vertical and horizontal plane.
    It would also be very good if fatigued players could NOT accelerate attacks this would be very visible to other players. It wouldn’t be very hard to change the animation in that way -eg the player can attempt to accelerate an attack and the character model turns but the player’s arms and weapon lag behind.

    I like that its something that should not require much stabilization into the game and its worth a try since this seems like a easy solution to the everybody is still able to hit 100% of the time even with 0 stamina, not to mention it should not effect all the class very much either



  • yes the system itself is fine but i fine the fact that people can still go after you with a 2 and 3 swing combo even when out of stamina i have seen this while fight number of people big time for MAA where they are just able to keep doging forward at me and keep swining

    As I said, it is not possible to combo when out of stamina. And you are not able to dodge. If you mean them doing so while huffing like exhausted, the sound animation can go long enough for them to get back some stamina while still huffing. That sound clue is not 100% accurate. If they are really out of stamina, neither dodge nor combos are possible for them to perform.

    Besides, I suggested to reduce their damage when exhausted, which would be in your favor (I guess) because they won’t be able to strike you down with the same ease once their stamina is depleted.

    @Dark:

    This would create a balancing layer that would take tons of work and tweaking and lead to very minimal payoff in exchange. You’d no doubt end up having to balance even further how the classes function at low stamina when you start adjusting damage. As it is everyone gets the same hindrances and you have a reasonable expectation of what someone can do.

    I would just have suggested that when somebody commences an attack that reduces his stamina to zero this attack would only deal 50% weapon damage. Weapon damage type and armor resistance (which is also in %) unaffected. Thus, blocking with zero stamina triggers a daze, attacking with zero stamina causes 50% less damage dealt. The implementation of the former was entirely possible, so why should the implementation of the latter be any harder?
    The prequel Age of Chivalry prohibited you from doing any attack whatsoever when out of stamina and the tutorial of Chivalry MW still claims that it is the same. I think 50% damage is a reasonable trade off, as I do not see why defense should be much more hindered then offense. Shouldn’t a defensive playstyle be more stamina conserving?
    And about low stamina being a result of prolonged combat: that’s true for both parties in a fight. If your stamina runs out while your opponent’s stamina does not, it is some kind of mismanagement on your side and should have drawbacks. If you are both exhausted the playing field is still even. And in a team battle situation, you now may fall back to let a well rested team mate carry on the fight. I would really like to see these kind of strategies pay off.

    If you look at your post it contains some really awesome solutions to the problem you present. You note that due to blocking being so dangerous, an opponent is likely to want to go aggressive instead. This is a major disadvantage since you know that the opponents best options are limited to attacking making them easier to read. In this hypothetical, that eliminates the need to worry about accounting for defense whereas he doesn’t have that option. You can now draw out a swing and NO MATTER WHAT happens as long as you avoid it and move in you have succeeded. He will wither get hit or block and both of those lead to damage for you.

    Or he will successfully hit and possibly kill you (or your mate)…? Attackers usually have an advantage in this game, I want to force him in the defensive, not the offensive! He burned his stamina, now it should be my turn as I wisely saved some energy. Why should it be more attractive for an exhausted fighter to start attacking furiously instead of trying to conserve/regain some of his stamina?



  • @giantyak:

    @Dark:


    This would create a balancing layer that would take tons of work and tweaking and lead to very minimal payoff in exchange…

    You’re being over dramatic it would be very easy to balance, all you have to do is adjust how much stamina each class gets.

    This game is much more realistic then you give it credit for. The game appears less realistic then what it is due to limited animation which makes it harder for people to see how things actually happened, not to mention if you wanted add this degree of realism to the animation you would need three keyboards for all the inputs and eight arms to use them. Its too hard to replicate on a computer/keyboard/mouse how quickly a human can react to a situation and modify actions accordingly. Its easier to just be well read and know whats happening and accept it.

    I am definitely not. You betray how little you are considering when you put the words “all you have to do is” in front of “adjust how much stamina each class gets.”

    That is an extremely significant undertaking and I don’t think you are considering just how far reaching the effects of undertaking something like that would have. Not to mention how long it would take to get the right numbers in place. All to fix an issue that isn’t even really an issue outside of the visual indicator elements I mentioned.

    And this isn’t a matter of how realistic the game is or isn’t. Game design 101 is when realism clashes with design, design wins every time. Core decision should prioritize what’s best for the GAME to FUNCTION. Not to emulate real life.

    To dance with you on the realism element for a bit, this game is SUPER UNREALISTIC. It’s not even CLOSE to realistic. You are confusing the visceral effects of being in first person and hearing the sounds and feeling the weight of the swings to being realistic. The game is arcadey as they come. Super over-stylized and ridiculous. That’s what makes it fun.

    Would you like to challenge me to provide a list of merely 20 out of all of the far super unrealistic elements in this game? I can do it.

    @giantyak:

    I think the best way to be able to tell when you’re out of stamina is if you have some slight ‘greyout’ effect (similar to the red effect you see when near death) or blackening of the screen to a degree where it becomes a little bit hard to see as easily. This would simulate someone who is exhausted and also the slightly diminished state of visibility might make people a little more uncoordinated and this would be visible to other players
    Failing this it would be fun to see a range modifier to an attacks accuracy whilst someone is fatigued. eg when someone is fatigued attacks are plus or minus 20% of where the mouse cursor is pointing in the vertical and horizontal plane.
    It would also be very good if fatigued players could NOT accelerate attacks this would be very visible to other players. It wouldn’t be very hard to change the animation in that way -eg the player can attempt to accelerate an attack and the character model turns but the player’s arms and weapon lag behind.

    I think this is a series of bad ideas that don’t consider the effort they would take to implement them or the effects they would have on the game. Again, throw realism out the window. Realism is an anchor to support the game. Not the other way around.

    The low health screen is already a pretty bad idea what with making it hard to tell who is on your team. There are some things that you simply can’t simulate the effects of because they don’t draw in the player they impede them. Now you suggest adding more screen effects to the game on top of that.

    And trying to balance around that reduced state would be tricky as well. And many games create hilarious situations where players start adjusting their monitor settings in crazy ways in order to have an advantage when it comes to visibility effecting statuses. I think the current downsides are enough.

    As far as being visible to others, have you REALLY been able to note significant difference in play from someone low on health and someone who’s not? Even if they have the reduced visibility? From my point of view I think the visibility change with health is a way to help people get an idea of their health pool status without looking at the bar (so they can remain immersed). I could be wrong.

    And all the suggestions about ranged modifiers and coding entirely different physics rules in the game and changing sensitivity on the fly to make the mouse movements render less result and all this stuff that would just make the game seem like it’s breaking is great for single player games like Haunting Ground. For a game like this it would just create a mess.

    And all that work simply to cripple low stamina players and nothing else. A situation people find themselves in a small percentage of the time. Hardly seems worth the effort and seems to be WAY too much downside for something that’s already a downside.

    We all want revenge on LMB swingers but seriously…

    @coldkiller:

    I like that its something that should not require much stabilization into the game and its worth a try since this seems like a easy solution to the everybody is still able to hit 100% of the time even with 0 stamina, not to mention it should not effect all the class very much either

    You obviously didn’t read his post if you think it’s a small undertaking, essentially coding an entirely different game to function when someone is low on stamina.



  • Maybe we should do a kickstarter to hire a crack team of specialists to spectate every single player, and hit lmb spammers with lag spikes every time they get into combat, therefore causing all noobs to simultaneously ragequit forever.



  • i think the best thing to do is what giantyak said lower the accuracy of there attacks and lower the damage of every classes attacks only when there stamina is at 0, it should not be possible to hit 100% of the time when your stamina is at 0 or even do max damage.i hope somebody in making this game looks at some of the ideas that we came up with and change the stamina system to a more balanced system cause a guy with 0% stamina should not keep attacking none stop the stamina system is there for a reason and it should be put to use. yet again i like the idea that giantyak came up with lower the visual of the guys screen and lower the accuracy of the attacks if the person is at 0% stamina



  • Didn’t read all the replies to be honest, but I completly agree with OP. I faced some MAAs what just spammed 3 or dodges and missed slashes just like they had the triple of their stamina. Even if they start ‘heavy-breathing’ they are still able to perform a 3 slashes sword combo… awful.



  • @gregcau:

    I want to be able to fake huffing and puffing.

    That is actually a brilliant idea. +1



  • If at the very least it would be good if it was more obvious to a player when he is out of stamina and if other players can see this as opposed to just hearing an exhausted huffing this would be good also, because whos to say which player is huffing and puffing when there are 5 players next to each other.
    Much respect to TB for all they have done so far.


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