The Buckler



  • As with all my balance threads, this one is meant to primarily be a centralized source of discussion (of which there’s been a lot lately) for the Buckler. Where it stands, why this is so, where it should be, and how we can get it there.

    The Buckler is designed to be an option for enhanced defense with minimal penalty to offensive potential with the fringe benefit of modest projectile protection.

    Compared to parries, it has resistance to feints and projectiles, at the cost of a Special slot, a shield lower time, and ripostes.

    Compared to the Heater Shield, it has faster lower time, with (puzzlingly) equal stamina drain, as well as smaller size.

    It would seem popular consensus is hugely skewed against this shield. Its extremely low protection against projectiles, combined with a loss of riposte makes this an altogether unpopular choice. Further, the excessively high amount of vision obscuration the Buckler imposes makes it an even less appealing choice.

    It’s also worth mentioning that a current bug with attacks ignoring shields exacerbates this perception, making an objective assessment more difficult.

    So if we assume the Buckler needs some help, how should we do it? There aren’t terribly many ways we can buff this shield, especially without causing inconsistencies with the other shields.

    One option I’d like to bring out before the discussion begins is removing the Buckler’s lower time, and/or giving it a riposte, like parrying. This riposte could be slightly slower than parry’s riposte (especially if the lower time remained), or could cost stamina. Ideally, the riposte would only be gained in the first .50s (or so) of blocking. Optionally, this would also play an animation where the player juts out the buckler in a punching motion (much like how real shields with bosses are used). After the animation, the Buckler returns to rest, to block further attacks and projectiles. If you don’t lower and attack soon after a successful punch-block, you lose the ability to riposte.

    Its Shove could also be given more speed, more damage, and/or a lesser stamina cost.

    Finally, one thing I’d like to mention is the Shield Attack present with the Javelin and Flail. I’ve noticed an odd inconsistency across these attacks; while the damages are identical, the speeds for this attack are all distinct.

    Windup / Release / Recovery

    Damage: 35 Blunt (All)
    Short Spear Shield Attack: 0.35 / 0.3 / 0.5
    Javelin Shield Attack: 0.35 / 0.3 / 0.6
    Heavy Javelin Shield Attack: 0.45 / 0.3 / 0.5
    Flail Shield Attack: 0.45 / 0.35 / 0.525

    The Shield Attack is generally thought of as a pitiful attack; it’s fast (though not much faster than a Javelin stab) and deals a measly 35 Blunt, only enough to 3 hit an Archer (more than 4 or even 5 hits for any other class). While this is by no means a primary attack, its poor damage makes it useless for combos and its range precludes it from being used to interrupt enemy attacks, especially when you could just Shove.

    I would suggest a normalization of all speed values (perhaps less so for the Flails) and/or a buff to 40 or even 45 damage. This, combined with a buff to the Buckler itself (as well as reducing its vision obfuscation), should make this piece of kit into a respectable asset.

    But perhaps the balance of Javelins and Flails have far less to do with the Buckler itself than I think. Surely, better, more unique solutions can be applied to the Buckler to make it useful. So, discuss away!



  • You have excellent points. Mine, however, are much more simple: I want a working shield! It feels like my buckler rarely blocks anything, even for those attacks I could have easily parried. I feel that I’d be better off most of the time without the buckler since it is atrocious at shielding against melee.

    So, it needs to be fixed so as the hitboxes actually reflect the model. Then, it needs to take up less stamina than the Heater, and then maybe do a bit more shield punch damage. Then it will be fine as far as I’m concerned.



  • Yep, the actual area the buckler blocks varies and is mostly just around the middle of it. It’s like the outer buckler is completely transparent.



  • When I imagine a buckler shield, I think of a small, (smaller than Heater), fast parrying shield. Not meant to take heavy blows, but deflect lighter ones for a quick counter-attack, and to be used in combination with dodging and footwork by light classes (MAA), or be a small, light bit of protection for ranged ones. Arrow protection is basically to cover face and a tiny bit of torso.

    Atm it feels huge, unwieldy, too big, too slow, too weak, and DEFINITELY doesn’t suit a Knight.

    MAA’s should be able to use it for parrying lighter blows (dodging heavier), Javs for a bit of ranged protection and deflecting a melee blow or two. That’s it.

    MAA’s can use Heater if they want to take a few heavier hits and want some proper protection.

    Knights should have Kite and tower to take heavier hits, and Heater for the Flail (since that one needs to be a bit more mobile).



  • As much as I hate shields, this thing is a turd sandwich. I’m not sure how it could be “buffed”, but I feel like making it optional for flails/javelins would be a good thing. Flails could use heater or heavier shield and javs… They could get a parrying dagger.



  • Reading the OP has made me sad. Jav archer is one of my favorite things to play, but it’s at such an inherit disadvantage.

    Honestly, I’m more and more leaning toward removing it and adding an entirely new shield. If not a new shield, then allow jav archer and flail knight to use the heater.



  • Buckler suits Jav archer, it just needs to be made a tad smaller and re-worked to handle as it should, as a light-parrying shield for a mobile class. The shield should litterally work like a quick parry, (as in fast to put up / down), but ofc allow you to hold it up as normal to block arrows.

    Just when taking heavy melee hits you should not WANT to hold this thing up and take multiple heavy hits on it, due to heavy stam penalties (light hits from smaller weapons and projectiles shouldn’t take much though). It’s blessing should be that it is very quick to use and gives some protection from arrows, not to work like a turtle shield.



  • @BobT36:

    Buckler suits Jav archer, it just needs to be made a tad smaller and re-worked to handle as it should, as a light-parrying shield for a mobile class.

    Yeah, it suits them, but it sucks and personally, I would prefer parrying dagger ;)



  • @Slaughtervomit:

    As much as I hate shields, this thing is a turd sandwich. I’m not sure how it could be “buffed”, but I feel like making it optional for flails/javelins would be a good thing. Flails could use heater or heavier shield and javs… They could get a parrying dagger.

    This isn’t a solution to the problem; it’s more of a cop-out, like sweeping the problem under the rug. I’d like to see more discussion on how to fix the Buckler rather than accepting its current state and merely trying to replace it with something else.

    For the sake of discussion, let’s assume the Buckler will never be replaced. This is especially important if the Flail gets the Heater Shield (which it should), because there needs to be a reason for a Knight to take the Buckler over it.

    @BobT36:

    Buckler suits Jav archer, it just needs to be made a tad smaller and re-worked to handle as it should, as a light-parrying shield for a mobile class.

    This is vaguely what I’m thinking, but I do not think it should be made smaller. If anything, it should be bigger, and renamed to the “Round Shield” (since that’s what it is right now, it’s not a true Buckler).

    A Dueling Buckler would be a cool addition, but it would be awful for replacing the current Buckler, as they’d have different roles.



  • @NikolaiLev:

    @Slaughtervomit:

    As much as I hate shields, this thing is a turd sandwich. I’m not sure how it could be “buffed”, but I feel like making it optional for flails/javelins would be a good thing. Flails could use heater or heavier shield and javs… They could get a parrying dagger.

    This isn’t a solution to the problem; it’s more of a cop-out, like sweeping the problem under the rug. I’d like to see more discussion on how to fix the Buckler rather than accepting its current state and merely trying to replace it with something else.

    You’re 100% right. Why did I even post? I feel like a dope now. :lol:

    I like your idea about “round shield”.

    I’ll show myself the door now.



  • I highly doubt any real changes will be made
    :(



  • I found the secret of using the buckler.

    Turn.



  • @BobT36:

    Buckler suits Jav archer

    I bet they would prefer to pick extra ammo.



  • Buckler is annoying.

    I saw a guy using it and thought “Hey I can crouch and stab his legs”

    There was an invisible wall.

    I hate the buckler.



  • @gregcau:

    @BobT36:

    Buckler suits Jav archer

    I bet they would prefer to pick extra ammo.

    I would.


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