Crossbows need a Overhaul



  • As it stands now, obviously there is a limit to what you can do to balance the Crossbow, its already reached that limit, 98 damage for a headshot with a Light Crossbow? Thats inane.

    Aswell as the Heavy Crossbow being a useless piece of shit yet everyone thinks its a monster because it can kill a knight in 1 hit, but then so can the normal crossbow, inane.

    Only thing left to do if we were to go at this rate would be to increase the Heavy Crossbow’s damage to be able to 1shot a vanguard to the chest, but that too is inane, but the only option left.

    So I call for an overhaul.

    Instead of it being only a damage contest, perhaps we should stir the pot, as it stands now all 3 crossbows are about the same except for the slightest damage that enable 1 shot kills, so two of them are better off trashed, I suggest the Heavy Crossbow to make it out on top.

    Its a fine piece, it is highest tier when it comes to damage, I suggest it being buffed to being able to 1 shot a Vanguard to the chest, however at the cost of an increased reload time, perhaps 5 seconds, with perhaps a limit to 10 bolts, make the Heavy Crossbow actually mean something instead of being a slight variation.(Off of the head numbers, perhaps 1 shotting a Vanguard to the chest isn’t even needed, needs testing.)

    But now its time to fill in the voids, instead of damage, we focus on capacity, the only way to actually make crossbows different while having a use compared to Bows, would have to make them Repeating Crossbows.

    Now there are many things I do not know of repeating crossbows, but because this is a game, I choose ignorance.

    Off a quick google search found these 2 images of said crossbow.

    http://www.milesteves.com/gallery/d/234 … ow_001.jpg

    http://www.brlsi.org/sites/all/files/ch … ossbow.jpg

    Now obviously that many bolts would be overpowered.

    I suggest something along the lines of:

    Light Repeating Crossbow: 4 bolt capacity

    Repeating Crossbow:3 bolt capacity

    Heavy Repeating Crossbow:2 bolt capacity

    **As for the numbers, off the head I come off with(2 Versions as a choice could not be made):
    **

    Light Repeating Crossbow: 1 shots up to Archer in head, 2 body shots up to MAA

    Repeating Crossbow:1 shots up to MAA in head, 2 body shots up to Vanguard

    Heavy Repeating Crossbow:1 shots up to Vanguard in head, 2 body shots on knight’s body, 1 shots on body up to archer

    Light Repeating Crossbow: 2 body shots up to MAA

    Repeating Crossbow:1 shots Archers in the head, 2 body shots up to Vanguard

    Heavy Repeating Crossbow:1 shots MAA in the head, 2 body shots on knight’s body, 1 shots on body up to archer

    Remember numbers off of head, needs testing, on all fonts including potential capacity.

    How it could potentially work

    Obviously ammo across the board for these new Crossbows would need to be higher.

    How these things could play in action.(Again I know nothing of these things, so ignorance works when it comes to this)

    Take Light Repeating Crossbow for example, holds 4 bolts at once, if you fire only one or 2 your are able to supposedly put in more bolts in your chamber/whatever hold the bolts are called,if it allows for it.

    The Light Repeating Crossbow would be the longest to reload the actual bolts, as your character needs to make sure they fit correctly the more bolts the chamber has.(Or some bullshit)

    However besides reloading the bolts, you also still have to reload the crossbow its self after each shot.

    The second Crossbow picture may be something usable for a Light Repeating Crossbow, not thinking about how they realistically shoot however, or perhaps some other design that doesn’t require your character to look down to reload, some other mechanism, perhaps.

    Of course perhaps neither above meets the requirement, perhaps need to find other variations to suit the need, or perhaps make your own version that would seem logical.

    The reloading of the crossbow itself for these new crossbows, obviously has to be faster then how they are now, or at least have some advantage to how crossbows are reloaded now.

    Essentially if everything was balanced by actual testing, we would have a total of 4 crossbows, each with new variances not only against each other in damage, but capacity aswell, as we have already reached the peak of damage when it has come to trying to balance current Crossbows, or at least make them have a use compared to bows.

    Don’t believe I have seen this suggested, or at least talked about yet, so I throw this out, as I wouldn’t be seen dead with a crossbow with how they are compared to bows, change is needed, and not just increasing the damage to such a level that is, how you say, lacking sense.

    However Crossbows are currently fine when compared to how Javelins and slings compare to bows in effectiveness, now thats just inane.



  • Without looking at the Chinese and their Chu Ko Nus, I bet you would still have to deal with the long reload times. Its just that the bolts are already there waiting to be loaded.

    If it did have an auto reload, it would waste all four bolts in rapid succession but would be less effective against armored units. Which would make people use crossbows more often regardless because its like a burst fire rifle and can score more hits than you would a bow. But would suffer even longer reload times.

    And that’s if you reduced the tension so it would make it easier to reload. If you did make it like a Chu ko nu and kept the same tension of a regular crossbow, it would have to chew through stamina and when you run out, you shouldn’t be able to fire a round until you regain some of it.



  • Call me crazy, but I actually like crossbows. I prefer them over bows.



  • No.

    but repeating crossbow is awesome.



  • @Yoshiblue:

    Without looking at the Chinese and their Chu Ko Nus, I bet you would still have to deal with the long reload times. Its just that the bolts are already there waiting to be loaded.

    If it did have an auto reload, it would waste all four bolts in rapid succession but would be less effective against armored units. Which would make people use crossbows more often regardless because its like a burst fire rifle and can score more hits than you would a bow. But would suffer even longer reload times.

    And that’s if you reduced the tension so it would make it easier to reload. If you did make it like a Chu ko nu and kept the same tension of a regular crossbow, it would have to chew through stamina and when you run out, you shouldn’t be able to fire a round until you regain some of it.

    Well for reload times, it would just be around it being balanced, not realistic, and no auto reload on these crossbows, well maybe the light one, perhaps.

    Essentially think it should be similar to current crossbows, but having a higher then 1 capacity with damage reduced with capacity in mind, though with a slightly faster crossbow reload itself with a less awkward position.

    Would like stamina introduced into Bows and Crossbows, to limit how much you can pump out with crossbows at a time, and potentially give bows some extra use at the cost of stamina.

    Aswell to the essentially nay sayers, at the moment, 2 out of 3 crossbows are generally useless, as they deal nearly the same damage, but sacrifice or gain 1hit kills for the speed of reload, that is the only difference between them.

    For using a Light Crossbow you gain decreased reload speed but lose 1 shot kill to body of archers.

    For using a Crossbow you gain 1 shot kill to body of archers and 1 shot kill to the head of a knight.

    For using a Heavy Crossbow you gain increased reload speed and 1 gain 1 shot kill to body of MMA.

    You also gain and lose a number of bolts, which make heavy even worse when compared to the regular Crossbow.

    In fact all the archer’s primaries needs to be tweaked, but for crossbows, when all you can do is add 1 hit kill to chest on vanguard for heavy crossbow, or just nerf the normal Crossbow to be slightly worse, when compared to Warbow, will not work out in the end.

    We need innovation not just slight differences.



  • A line of repeating crossbows would actually be a good idea, especially if we moved the Sling and Javelins to an entirely new class (the Skirmisher, of course!).

    However, the Crossbows as they are are fine. The Heavy Crossbow 1 shots MaA in the chest and flies flatter.

    I do think the normal Crossbow shouldn’t 1h Knights in the head, though. Unfortunately, this is impossible to do without taking away its ability to 1h Archers in the chest (which it needs to keep).



  • @NikolaiLev:

    A line of repeating crossbows would actually be a good idea, especially if we moved the Sling and Javelins to an entirely new class (the Skirmisher, of course!).

    However, the Crossbows as they are are fine. The Heavy Crossbow 1 shots MaA in the chest and flies flatter.

    I do think the normal Crossbow shouldn’t 1h Knights in the head, though. Unfortunately, this is impossible to do without taking away its ability to 1h Archers in the chest (which it needs to keep).

    I’d wanted more difference, but I suppose if you were to leave the default crossbows in, along with repeating, that does allow the sling and javelins to be able to be moved to other classes, though may need 1 more set of primary weapons.

    As for the current Crossbows, it seems like an easy fix to remove the headshot from knight, as thats the only thing they have ever changed of it, by which i mean only putting a 2 Multiplier on their head, so it should simply be easily to revert that headshot change for both light and normal crossbows, and leave it only for the Heavy, supposedly.



  • @Slaughtervomit:

    Call me crazy, but I actually like crossbows. I prefer them over bows.

    The high projectile speed and low drop off is very nice, better for long range sniping. The heavy crossbow, in particular, is excellent anti archer and MAA - no matter the range, a body shot will one shot them. So, as long as you don’t hit their feet, you can shoot across the map and OHK archers and MAAs.

    That being said, I’m of the opinion that the regular crossbow, the heavy crossbow, and all javelins should pierce shields somewhat. A heavy crossbow with such a long reload time ought to at least damage a bit through shields so it isn’t completely worthless against shield bearers (half of people playing).



  • This is more a whislist that actual balance suggestions.



  • @Atanar:

    This is more a whislist that actual balance suggestions.

    Should learn the meaning of words before you assume.

    A wishlist is something someone spouts what they would like, what I have here is an actual suggestion to fix crossbows other than increased damage, and plausibly going through shields, which in the end would just hurt javelin even more.

    Should also refrain from posting unless you have something constructive that would help out other future suggestions, rather than just an assumption with 0 potential constructiveness.



  • @Zeroace:

    @Atanar:

    This is more a whislist that actual balance suggestions.

    Should learn the meaning of words before you assume.

    A wishlist is something someone spouts what they would like, what I have here is an actual suggestion to fix crossbows other than increased damage, and plausibly going through shields, which in the end would just hurt javelin even more.

    Should also refrain from posting unless you have something constructive that would help out other future suggestions, rather than just an assumption with 0 potential constructiveness.

    Actually, he has a point. In the original post you really didn’t say much other than “I don’t like Crossbows.” This is valid, but trying to assert your position as an objective balance perspective is flawed because you didn’t give any objective evidence to support your arguments.

    Crossbows are balanced. They may not be fun for you. Which is okay, and I understand why you might want an overhaul. But that’s just a subjective desire, much how I want to see a Skirmisher class who has the Javelin and Sling instead of just the Archer.

    It wouldn’t necessarily lead to superior balance. It’d just be more fun for me.



  • @NikolaiLev:

    Actually, he has a point. In the original post you really didn’t say much other than “I don’t like Crossbows.” This is valid, but trying to assert your position as an objective balance perspective is flawed because you didn’t give any objective evidence to support your arguments.

    Crossbows are balanced. They may not be fun for you. Which is okay, and I understand why you might want an overhaul. But that’s just a subjective desire, much how I want to see a Skirmisher class who has the Javelin and Sling instead of just the Archer.

    It wouldn’t necessarily lead to superior balance. It’d just be more fun for me.

    No, that is called an assumption, as does your saying of thats the only thing you see in my post, if you already eyeballed my post, then perhaps we need to reenact a Rocky scene,

    It is obvious when looking at crossbows, their balance generally has been just increasing the already high damage to that of little difference besides whether it should or should not 1shot.

    Though some do say they have other differences with range, there is that aswell.

    Another potential variable would be to shoot through shields, but then that would just screw Javelins, which is far what we should do.

    At it stands now, the only crossbow worth using is regular, I mean you can use Light Crossbow, but then you can’t 1 body shot archers when they will most likely 1 body shot you.

    Could use Heavy Crossbow, now I admit looked at it, you gain some projectile speed, aswell however difference of extra range compared to regular crossbow, however at the expense of ammo and reload time, supposedly even raising time of said crossbow to shoot, while only gaining the ability to 1 shot a MAA in the chest,I suppose you can say at extreme ranges it would come in handy, however if the target is moving, chances are you would be able to nail them with a regular crossbow nearly as equally if your that skilled, just takes slight adjustment.(Supposedly slight, still don’t know of the difference, used both but don’t know exactly the range difference, didn’t seem that large, but may need to try again.)

    Though now that I look at it, thats inane that a Shortbow and Warbow have supposedly same projectile speed, but fuck it.

    Point is at the moment, the benefits of using either Light or heavy are not enough to stray away from Regular, do you consider that balanced?

    When would you ever use a light or heavy, over regular?



  • @Zeroace:

    Point is at the moment, the benefits of using either Light or heavy are not enough to stray away from Regular, do you consider that balanced?

    When would you ever use a light or heavy, over regular?

    A Light Crossbow is useful if want to provide long distance harassment, or are skilled at achieving headshots (as they can 1h headshot anything short of a Knight).

    A Heavy Crossbow is good for even longer ranges due to its projectile speed and flat trajectory, as well as its ability to 1h MaA in the Chest.

    They are balanced. But could they be better? Sure, I think so myself. A Crossbow shouldn’t be able to 1h headshot a Knight; that should be left to the Heavy Crossbow.

    I don’t think these weapons are as useless as you make them out to be. But I do think it warrants some examination. I feel the 2x Headshot multiplier for Crossbows might be the source of the problem.

    The thing is, I’m fairly certain that change was made to bring the Crossbows up to the Warbow’s level, which was the wrong decision. That change needs to be reverted when the Warbow is finally nerfed. We want to avoid power creep, after all.

    I’d say the Light Crossbow should 1h Headshot all classes except the Knight, killing no one with a bodyshot.

    The Crossbow should 1h Headshot all classes except the Knight, but 1h bodyshot Archers.

    The Heavy Crossbow should 1h Headshot all classes, and 1h bodyshot Archers and MaA.

    This might make the Heavy Crossbow out to be a little too good. A .50 increase in reload time ought to solidfy it as a low DPS but extremely hard hitting weapon.



  • @NikolaiLev:

    I’d say the Light Crossbow should 1h Headshot all classes except the Knight, killing no one with a bodyshot.

    The Crossbow should 1h Headshot all classes except the Knight, but 1h bodyshot Archers.

    The Heavy Crossbow should 1h Headshot all classes, and 1h bodyshot Archers and MaA.

    This might make the Heavy Crossbow out to be a little too good. A .50 increase in reload time ought to solidfy it as a low DPS but extremely hard hitting weapon.

    So essentially the Light crossbow stays the same.

    The Crossbow is reverted back to normal.

    And the Heavy Crossbow retains its buff to 1shot kill a knight to the head.

    Yea that is logical, why they didn’t do that in the first place is inane, however that would still give the Light Crossbow little purpose, aswell its not all balanced yet.

    As I have just learned the Crossbow is better than the Heavy Crossbow when it comes to range, its true heavy has slight speed increase, but it goes down sooner.

    That should not be, and something needs to be done with Light Crossbow, perhaps quicker reload, slightly quicker, or perhaps not being forced to look down to reload, you know something.

    As for the Warbow, before they buff or nerf anything, they should fix whats broken, and correct what seems logical to fix.



  • Without touching any other particular concept in this thread about balancing or whatever, I just want to throw my two cents in to say that a repeating xbow would be amazing. Depending on the size of the bow, real ones don’t necessarily take so much effort to draw, and a light one can be drawn back by the use of a lever to provide mechanical advantage. What if there was one added which carried a large number of bolts total, but also needed to use magazines? It could be a low-damage weapon with a relatively high turnover time, with the tradeoff being when the magazine is emptied it takes even longer to reload than the heavy crossbow currently does, due to how many bolts need to be placed in the weapon.



  • On the point of Crossbows 1-shotting Knights, this won’t happen in either the next patch or the one after. The idea was to just make the Heavy Crossbow 1-shot, but the normal went with it unintentionally.



  • @NikolaiLev:

    @Zeroace:

    Point is at the moment, the benefits of using either Light or heavy are not enough to stray away from Regular, do you consider that balanced?

    When would you ever use a light or heavy, over regular?

    A Light Crossbow is useful if want to provide long distance harassment, or are skilled at achieving headshots (as they can 1h headshot anything short of a Knight).

    A Heavy Crossbow is good for even longer ranges due to its projectile speed and flat trajectory, as well as its ability to 1h MaA in the Chest.

    They are balanced. But could they be better? Sure, I think so myself. A Crossbow shouldn’t be able to 1h headshot a Knight; that should be left to the Heavy Crossbow.

    I don’t think these weapons are as useless as you make them out to be. But I do think it warrants some examination. I feel the 2x Headshot multiplier for Crossbows might be the source of the problem.

    The thing is, I’m fairly certain that change was made to bring the Crossbows up to the Warbow’s level, which was the wrong decision. That change needs to be reverted when the Warbow is finally nerfed. We want to avoid power creep, after all.

    I’d say the Light Crossbow should 1h Headshot all classes except the Knight, killing no one with a bodyshot.

    The Crossbow should 1h Headshot all classes except the Knight, but 1h bodyshot Archers.

    The Heavy Crossbow should 1h Headshot all classes, and 1h bodyshot Archers and MaA.

    This might make the Heavy Crossbow out to be a little too good. A .50 increase in reload time ought to solidfy it as a low DPS but extremely hard hitting weapon.

    I agree with all of this except increasing the heavy xbow’s reload time, and the power creep. The warbow is about perfect; hence why everyone likes it. The Longbow is too weak for the drawtime, and the shortbow is both too weak and too innaccurate for a bow that is supposed to be mobile. As for the heavy xbow, the reload time is way too punishing as it is with arrows being easy to dodge and/or shielded. Personally, I feel crossbows should pierce shields, but that’s just me (excepting the light crossbow). A corresponding buff to the speed of bows would allow them to be better mid range, while the crossbows shine at longer ranges and vs all targets.



  • #1 repetier crossbows have a real bad firepower (so bad that they had to poison their bolts in order to be somewhat effective)

    #2 RoF is the major difference between Bows and Crossbows in Chivarly. You can’t just take it away. Also we had a discussion on this earlier and most people seem to agree that the required amount of hits to kill is the only stat that really matters in chivarly (not like I’m a big fan of this point of view), and as you said there isn’t much space for tweaks since everything is about 1-3 hits already. Hence, Crossbows are as good as they are going to be under these circumstances.

    #3 I don’t think crossbows are weaker than bows since the last patches. Sniping became very viable, although you’ll have a hard time in competetive when your only archer uses a heavy crossbow because it’s lacks the pressure created by steady warbow fire. Heavy crossbow still has the ability to oneshot maa to their torso, which depending on teamsetup can become very handy, so it’s not absolutely worse than our basic crossbow.

    #4 I still want them to repair the animations. Everytime you get close to a timeout (aka lag spike) which happens all the time on all servers nowadays, the game forgets your crossbows position and you’re locked in aiming stance even though the animation doesn’t reflect this. Sometimes you can’t tell whether your weapon is loaded or not because the game always shows you’re empty… It’s not rare for a regular crossbow user to be unable to parry or attack with your meleeweapon or even sprint because you’re actually holding your crossbow in aiming stance… lol

    Paviseshield can be picked up again, but it still breaks by merely staring at it which makes setting it up a waste of time. Neither is it’s protection reliyable enough to counter the pressure of being as close to the front as a bow archer -but being forced into a stationary fighting mode (which is the only purpose this thing should have in my opinion). You don’t need a pavise for sniping. A smaller siluette + visial and solid cover provided by the map is far superior over that clumbsy “come and get me” sign. The bonus ammo is a suporior choice but not because ammo is that much worth in TO… <.<

    #5 Reflecting the recent changes (2x headshot damage):
    -Nothing has changed for the light crossbow, which implies the light crossbow was perfectly fine… discussable - if we had at least one pro archer using this weapon who could actually make some points in this discussion :P
    -Crossbow got an extreme boost with oneshotting knights to the head, given some people already thought it was fine before the patch maybe an overbuff.
    -Heavy crossbow recieved the same buff, only that it is justified this time. The only actual flaw to this weapon now is that Crossbow almost has the same Hits to kill ratio. The only way I see to improve this weapon is nerfing the crossbow

    I personally think you can’t play the role that competetive teamsetups usually want you to, but you can play a different one. Since I wasn’t able to convince my clan changing their strategies accordingly, I can’t tell if a supported crossbow sniper can be as effective in what he does as a supported warbow sprayer, but it works on pubs at least and it is a great deal of fun to me.

    That be said, changing the heavy crossbow to deal any more damage would make it boring and unchallenging to play. What fun is it to have a weapon that automatically oneshots someone and in return has to reload half of the game. I’d rather see pioniers building assault ballistae….



  • @Escadin:

    That be said, changing the heavy crossbow to deal any more damage would make it boring and unchallenging to play. What fun is it to have a weapon that automatically oneshots someone and in return has to reload half of the game. I’d rather see pioniers building assault ballistae….

    Anti armor crossbow on wheels?

    It’ll blow through anything, even a hole through an armored horse…

    I mean, the repeating crossbow you and I speak of are different, this is what you mean.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JToxcNxED5I

    What I speak of however, the difference would be you’d still have to pull back the string yourself, however not in the look down manner, just pull the damn string back, then you can fire quicker then you can now, as you don’t look down or have to put a bolt on, though with slightly less damage.

    Perhaps only do it to replace Light Crossbow, and turn it into Light Repeating Crossbow in that manner, would give it more staying power when compared to others eh?

    As I don’t think its all that good when compared to the other 2.



  • Oh hey you just gave me an idea:
    First of I’m fine with replacing the light crossbow with this hopefully more attractive model, however, it could just be a new weapon as well. So let’s say there’s a repetier crossbow with damage simular to shortbow. HOWEVER, it has all necessary shots for a kill already loaded. What we have is basically a shortrange crossbow that can kill people in let’s say 3 hits (knights only if you get 1-2 headshots). It can fire 3 shots very rapidly, however you get a very high reload time after that.
    It could be a mix of those funny 1x cool down 3x shots abilities from RPGs and Shotguns from FPS games. You either have a long reload time compareable to heavy crossbow but reload 3 bolts at once (each seperatly according to the animation of course) or you can stack up 3 bolts by reloading the crossbow every now and then.
    Even though it might not be the most realistic weapon and someone had to come up with a clever design for it, but it would definatly be fun to play and very unique.

    I’d make a suggestion thread about this but we all know performance tweaking should (and is) way on top of the dev’s list.


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