Different altitude combat - revisited



  • I have noticed that in the game, people having the “higher ground” in a fight are heavily penalised by the combat system which is against all principles of real life fencing.

    The advantage of being higher then your opponent resides in the fact that you can easily hit very strongly (gravity is on your side!!!) his high priority targets, i.e. chest and more importantly head while he has to block unusually high and being able to hit very low priority targets (your legs) and has to fight gravity a little bit more than usual.

    In the game, the situation is pretty much reversed. It is true that while having a high ground your opponent can hit only a low priority target (legs with damagy penalty) but he can hit them reliably and you have very very very difficult time blocking so high. On the other hand, it is extremely difficult for you to hit the opponents head because your hands are high and the altitude/angle shortens your reach significantly while his reach is totally unimpaired (his hands are in the height of the target).

    In real life, you can lower your hands and position to compensate for this, in the game it is impossible or very difficult (you have to crouch by pressing a dedicated button and this negates partly the higher ground advantage - the opponent can hit your higher damage targets more easily). Moreover, in the game the surfaces are quite steep, steeper than surfaces where you can normally fight, which is natural because the developpers have to present some attractive environments.

    I see this as a problem not only because it totally reverses some principles of fighting (i.e. it is counter-intuitive, non-realistic) but because it can influence game balance. Often there are higher grounds meant as places of defense in the game, for example spawnpoints (in Darkforest, Hillside, Snow valley), beacon hill in Hillside, hillside-ballistae staircases, the ruined wall, the great mason wall but they actually act as a weakpoint for the defenders because of the steep hills and staircases where attackers in the lower places have the advantage.

    Of course I don’t have a ready made solution to this problem but I have some ideas:

    • damage bonus/penalty according to the relative position of the opponents
    • reach bonus for an attacker on the higher ground when attacking on an opponent bellow
    • larger parry boxes beneath the weapon

    Of course such solutions would require the game keeping tracks on the height of the players at all time.



  • @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    • damage bonus/penalty according to the relative position of the opponents
    • reach bonus for an attacker on the higher ground when attacking on an opponent bellow

    Very unfair system… Just leave it as it is.



  • @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    • larger parry boxes beneath the weapon

    This is just about all we need. The current system that rewards lower altitude is just odd. At the very least we should normalize combat when it comes to altitude, so that neither being higher nor lower grant any sort of advantage.

    I don’t really care about how real life fencing goes. I just hate that lower ground is arbitrarily a better spot to be in.



  • In Chivalry, there is one advantage to having the higher ground on downward sloped terrain and it’s that knockback on a parry creates much more displacement between you and your opponent.



  • Overhead shots are slightly harder to block if you are on lower ground.



  • Landing on someone should do blunt damage, especially knights. You should be able to goomba stomp archers as a knight.



  • @Sir:

    In Chivalry, there is one advantage to having the higher ground on downward sloped terrain and it’s that knockback on a parry creates much more displacement between you and your opponent.

    Hm, no really. AFAIK kicking/shieldbash is only horizontal so if the difference is more than slight, you just cant do that. Moreover it is not really true, the key element in this “advantage” is lower terrain behind the kicked opponent (on the other hand higher terrain behind him makes your kick/shieldbash less useful).

    @gregcau:

    Overhead shots are slightly harder to block if you are on lower ground.

    Not as difficult as blocking low attacks when on high ground.

    @c4ndlejack:

    Landing on someone should do blunt damage, especially knights. You should be able to goomba stomp archers as a knight.

    Interesting idea :D I generally hate being able to dance on somebody’s head. If they are enemy and do overhead, your screwed and you can’t hit them because they’re out of your reach:)



  • @gregcau:

    Overhead shots are slightly harder to block if you are on lower ground.

    That’s nice, but you don’t have to block something that can’t reach you. Even with polearms you have to cuddle the opponent to land a stab from the 50° stairs.



  • @NikolaiLev:

    @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    • larger parry boxes beneath the weapon

    This is just about all we need. The current system that rewards lower altitude is just odd. At the very least we should normalize combat when it comes to altitude, so that neither being higher nor lower grant any sort of advantage.

    I don’t really care about how real life fencing goes. I just hate that lower ground is arbitrarily a better spot to be in.

    Though I agree the current state of how things are is a little strange, making large parry boxes underneath the weapon may take one dimension out of melee combat. I am all in favour of increasing parry boxes when looking significantly downwards, otherwise I don’t think it’s a benefit, since crouched attacks when on equal grounds can be extremely useful, and buffing regular parry boxes may result in nonsensical parries where your opponent is looking at where your head/torso was and manages to parry a crouched stab/slash.

    But yes, the low/high ground issue is pretty annoying since with very steep angles it’s actually useless to even try and fight as the high ground player.



  • The main problem with height differences besides torn banner putting it in every single map is the little forward movement that you do when you swing that sometimes makes you skip down a slope making your attack miss for some reason. If you’re on a lower ground than the opponent it makes it easier for you to hit them since you’re not really moving too much.



  • @Mint:

    @NikolaiLev:

    @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    • larger parry boxes beneath the weapon

    This is just about all we need. The current system that rewards lower altitude is just odd. At the very least we should normalize combat when it comes to altitude, so that neither being higher nor lower grant any sort of advantage.

    I don’t really care about how real life fencing goes. I just hate that lower ground is arbitrarily a better spot to be in.

    Though I agree the current state of how things are is a little strange, making large parry boxes underneath the weapon may take one dimension out of melee combat. I am all in favour of increasing parry boxes when looking significantly downwards, otherwise I don’t think it’s a benefit, since crouched attacks when on equal grounds can be extremely useful, and buffing regular parry boxes may result in nonsensical parries where your opponent is looking at where your head/torso was and manages to parry a crouched stab/slash.

    But yes, the low/high ground issue is pretty annoying since with very steep angles it’s actually useless to even try and fight as the high ground player.

    This is actually a good point. The extended parry boxes should only occur when looking down. Whatever happens we need to try and make sure this doesn’t become a problem for regular combat.



  • They need to fix low ground/high ground and how weapons detect the hitbox first before implementing any change.

    You can stand on the top of Stonehill stairs and someone can stand at the bottom and poke you with a spear or any other long weapon. Even if you are holding a shield up and looking at the weapon tip, most stabs will simply go through your block attempt.



  • Personally, I like the added challenge of gaining a good position on your enemy. It may be counter-intuitive but I don’t think it’s unbalanced. It just requires a change in the way players think. (e.g. dropping down behind attackers to gain the lower ground)



  • @NabsterHax:

    Personally, I like the added challenge of gaining a good position on your enemy. It may be counter-intuitive but I don’t think it’s unbalanced. It just requires a change in the way players think. (e.g. dropping down behind attackers to gain the lower ground)

    I agree.

    This is a game in the end and the current ruleset makes it disadvantageous to be on higher ground. I know it doesn’t make sense on a realism front but the changes that would need to be done to compensate for this would have a trickle down effect that may hinder more than help.

    Unless someone can think of a simple, streamlined way to give an advantage to an elevated player that won’t impact the rest of the game significantly…



  • Make the characters a tad smaller. Then being smaller means that they have to be closer to get a hit in.



  • I proposed tracking the altitude of the combatants and using it to calculate a bonus/penalty to the damage which seems pretty easy to me. Of course there is the question of the size of the bonus but that’s for discussion.
    Hitting legs or torso from lower position will be still as easy as it is but not so attractive while hitting head or torso from higher ground will be just as difficult but more potent, which will balance the lower and higher position out. I can even imagine not applying the bonus to stabbing because gravity doesnt help the stab and it would give some much needed edge to the spears. I don’t think it can really be gamebreaking and it would be very easy to tweak the amount of bonus damage.



  • @NikolaiLev:

    @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    • larger parry boxes beneath the weapon

    This is just about all we need. The current system that rewards lower altitude is just odd. At the very least we should normalize combat when it comes to altitude, so that neither being higher nor lower grant any sort of advantage.

    I don’t really care about how real life fencing goes. I just hate that lower ground is arbitrarily a better spot to be in.

    Doesn’t that make it viable to always parry over your opponents head in order to exploit the extended parry box? By exploit I mean that this way there would be no difference between parrying slash, stab and overhead you simply aim high enough.
    Such static, camera bound mechanism have a downside, which we were already tought by how the crippled vision is supposed to work on crossbows.



  • I am bumping that for selfish reasons. Even on a very moderate elevation a messer on lower ground has more reach then zweihänder on higher ground. Sometimes it gets extremely frustrating when enemies can cut easily thru your anckles while you have no way of reaching them.

    Also a poll has been added to see if it is only my problem or if more people see it that way.


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