Feinting is NOT broken!



  • Shocker eh? I have been getting quite annoyed by people saying it is.

    The main agruements against it?

    **1. Takes no skill!
    **
    Correct it doesn’t take skill to use. All it requires is the click of a button. The same goes for every other technique in this game. Does it make it easier for new players to get kills? Maybe, however I don’t see many new players using feints at all, and personally, I find new players VERY difficult to fight for that reason. They just swing swing swing, and I often get punished for feinting when fighting one of them.

    2. Turns it into a guessing game.

    No it doesn’t. It requires you not to parry the instant you see your opponent make a movement. This is EXTREMELY easy to with the big slow weapons most people complain about when used in conjunction with feinting. I agree it can be difficult to stop a feint from the faster weapons in this way, however, that is to be expected. Find a friend, and practice parrying feints with him/her. Block at the last second (or close to). Get out of the habit of parrying instantly.

    3. The human reaction time is not fast enough!

    That is total B.S. and a very laughable arguement if you have any sense about you. Unless your reaction time falls WAAAY below average you have no reason to make such a statement. I fall for feints all the time too, and guess what? I have enough time to say, “Oh, ****!” before the attack lands on me. The problem is that you get punished for parrying too early, as mentioned above.

    Anyway that is all I wanted to say. If anyone has anything they wish to dispute feel welcome. If you feel everything I said is poop, feel free to say so. However, please give a logical, and educated reason as to why my arguement is poop.

    Thanks,

    Azeal



  • What is your steam id?



  • @azeal_azrael:

    Feinting is NOT broken!

    Thank god for that. Now I finally shed my shield.



  • @rumpelstiltskin:

    What is your steam id?

    I assume you mean to prove me wrong? Even if that is not the case, I am not interested. @gregcau:

    @azeal_azrael:

    Feinting is NOT broken!

    Thank god for that. Now I finally shed my shield.

    Constructive comments only please. Sarcastic, and idiotic remarks are only wasting both of our time. If you feel my statements are wrong, give REASONS as I said in my original post. Quite frankly I’d love to be proven wrong about this whole debate on feinting. So far no arguement has given me reason to do so.

    The mechanic could possibly use some polish, however I feel that should be at the bottem of the Devs. to-do-list. The biggest issue right now in my opinion is these phantom swings (for lack of knowledge on the proper term). By phantom swings I mean the attacks that go right through people with no effect. I’m sure you’ve all seen that. I also believe parrying in general needs some work. It seems to have gone downhill since the update.



  • @azeal_azrael:

    3. The human reaction time is not fast enough!

    That is total B.S. and a very laughable arguement if you have any sense about you. Unless your reaction time falls WAAAY below average you have no reason to make such a statement. I fall for feints all the time too, and guess what? I have enough time to say, “Oh, ****!” before the attack lands on me. The problem is that you get punished for parrying too early, as mentioned above.

    Use some numbers and I might believe u. Otherwise yawn

    @azeal_azrael:

    If you feel my statements are wrong, give REASONS as I said in my original post. Quite frankly I’d love to be proven wrong about this whole debate on feinting. So far no arguement has given me reason to do so.

    If u had a look in all the other threads there are numerose arguments and i don’t waste my time to state them here specialy for u.



  • @azeal_azrael:

    Correct it doesn’t take skill to use. All it requires is the click of a button. The same goes for every other technique in this game. Does it make it easier for new players to get kills? Maybe, however I don’t see many new players using feints at all, and personally, I find new players VERY difficult to fight for that reason. They just swing swing swing, and I often get punished for feinting when fighting one of them.

    No it doesn’t. It requires you not to parry the instant you see your opponent make a movement. This is EXTREMELY easy to with the big slow weapons most people complain about when used in conjunction with feinting. I agree it can be difficult to stop a feint from the faster weapons in this way, however, that is to be expected. Find a friend, and practice parrying feints with him/her. Block at the last second (or close to). Get out of the habit of parrying instantly.

    That is total B.S. and a very laughable arguement if you have any sense about you. Unless your reaction time falls WAAAY below average you have no reason to make such a statement. I fall for feints all the time too, and guess what? I have enough time to say, “Oh, ****!” before the attack lands on me. The problem is that you get punished for parrying too early, as mentioned above

    1. Yea it doesn’t take any skill except that you need to learn not to feint at the beginning of windup.

    2. It makes it a guessing game. You have to decide whether you want to block the next one or just go ahead and swing again hoping that they will feint and get hit. It’s a coin toss especially against players like me who feints at the last possible second of windup. All the top players know it’s a guesswork and you carry on with it. I don’t know why you want to deviate from the pro player group.

    3. You are wrong again. Human reaction time average is 200ms and that’s on the faster category.

    According to “How fast do we react to moving obstacles?” by Aivar M P, Brenner E, Smeets J B J, in 2005, Average human reaction time is around 250 ms. According to a human reaction test and data collected from humanbenchmark.com, average reaction time was around 215 ms.

    Throw in ping differences, lag, and skippy animation on top of the human body limitation, and now it’s physically impossible for human players to react to these feints when used at the last moment of the windup. Those who are blocking feints purely do so by chances and luck.

    At the last second of weapon windup, you have to guess whether the swing will cancel or not. At the last second of windup, you have to parry or risk getting hit. If you guessed that it would be a feint and not parried, then you weren’t tricked.



  • And what know? making it impossible to cancel at end of windup will result in be able to parry every feint making it useless gg
    I say let the mechanic be and work on animations, maybe timings, lagprediction or something and new mechanics like blocking with a attack when swords get crossed or new stuff.



  • @sirsmokealot:

    And what know? making it impossible to cancel at end of windup will result in be able to parry every feint making it useless gg
    I say let the mechanic be and work on animations, maybe timings, lagprediction or something and new mechanics like blocking with a attack when swords get crossed or new stuff.

    Limiting feint window to last 0.1 second of the windup may solve the problem. It’s still well under human reaction time. But of course we need to see ingame.



  • @azeal_azrael:

    @rumpelstiltskin:

    What is your steam id?

    I assume you mean to prove me wrong? Even if that is not the case, I am not interested.

    @azeal_azrael:

    Quite frankly I’d love to be proven wrong about this whole debate on feinting.

    wut.

    Feints are a guessing game. It’s unbelievable that anyone would deny it at this point.

    The problem lies with really close facehug distances. Even with a slow weapon, when someone is that close to you, a feint is impossible to read.

    Big slow weapons are an even bigger problem even with distance, BECAUSE they’re slower. The longer windup means theres a longer feint window. This is especially problematic with stabs. Even if you wait until the last second to parry, he can just as easily wait until the last second to feint. And guess what? He wins. With long windup stabs, he can actually react to your reaction to the feint and commit or uncommit to the attack at the last second.

    Incoporating ping, even if he DIDN’T feint and you parried at that last moment. The ping difference might cause you to take damage anyway because of how late you decided to parry.



  • 3. The human reaction time is not fast enough!

    Human reaction, at PERFECT conditions, MIGHT be fast enough if you have good reflexes.

    But, add ping time and fps to this reaction time and, as they say… “You are in a world of shit!”



  • I think feints are better when they are faster than human reaction time.

    People think the word “guess” is a loaded word that somehow means skill isn’t involved. But all of the most strategic endeavors involve guessing in some form because the skill of prediction and reading your opponent is a tough skill to nurture and is very impressive to have.

    Feinting doesn’t break the game. It breaks the way some people want to play it. “Reactions only, please! I don’t want anyone out-thinking me as well!”

    I’d prefer the increased strategy behind a game that requires people to read and predict as well as react AKA a good game to compete in.

    And TC don’t be shocked at how many people will pretty much do all they can to not validate or give reasons as to why it’s broken… but still post in the topic anyway. At most you’ll probably get people simply explaining the mechanics features and then going “See? Broken!”



  • To this date this guy still hasn’t dueled any good feinters. Won’t add me on steam, won’t show anybody his steam account.

    Bought this game in February. Plays at an extremely low level yet likes to go on forums and throw theories around like he’s top tier.

    Sigh.



  • I still don’t get how people can possibly argue it doesn’t involve guessing or you can actually react to them. Even the people who favour the status quo appreciate it is guesswork but they feel the feint mechanic is necessary in its current form to prevent stalemates, which I agree with also, because when it comes to offering solutions to ‘fix’ feints, our hands are tied on every other mechanic so it makes it extremely difficult. As for saying humans can react to them, it’s simply impossible, you want numbers, here are the numbers:

    Minimum time damage can occur after windup phase = 0.0 seconds
    Minimum time left of windup phase a feint can occur = 0.0 seconds
    Slowest Windup in the game = 0.75 (average is much lower, only the halberd and flag have 0.75)
    Parry + parry recovery = 1.0
    1H feint cooldown = 0.3
    2H feint cooldown = 0.2
    All stab cooldowns = 0.4

    I’m not going piece these numbers together like a puzzle, it’s been said over and over. The whole argument for keeping the keeping the status quo revolving around being able to parry by ‘just waiting until the end of windup’ is wrong, that’s not my opinion, that’s not somebody else’s opinion, it’s just a fact, and if you think otherwise, it leads me to believe you are fighting people who are simply doing things wrong (i.e hitting at the end of release, just to state one example of many), so we can’t argue based on this. When it comes to discussing things, you HAVE to discuss the ideal scenario (people that do things exactly how the mechanic is supposed to function). Why? Because if you don’t, the system becomes flawed (lookdown overheads for example allowing ZERO release time - the game mechanics must support 0 release time, and on the whole they do, except for feints) - let me give one example what I mean by this - some people feint, but do their real attack BEFORE the opponent has parried, this leads to a case where people think feint is fine because in actual fact, the feinter made an error and the defender managed to parry the real attack. In the ideal situation, a feinter will NEVER follow through with his real attack before his opponent has parried incorrectly. This is why people who also argue attacks counter feints are not seeing the bigger picture - a good feinter will simply never allow you to attack him during his feint, because he will feint-parry, and only ever follow through with the real attack when you guess wrong and parry, allowing him to hit you during your parry recovery.

    I don’t mind feints in their current form, but like every other action in this game and just to name a few, attacks (going into recovery), parries (going into recovery), kick (going into recovery), feints need a downside to them if you ‘mess-up’. This means getting rid of feint spamming somehow, and giving them more downsides, whilst keeping the main purpose of feints - to force someone to parry so you can hit them during their parry recovery.



  • Personally I say keep feinting as is, just for the selfish reason that I have a shield so I am immune to them and if you parry me I can use it to kill you.

    Sometimes I just like to be evil (kinda like spawn camping on hillside with a heavy crossbow).



  • I have a good idea after reading Martins post …
    exponentially growing damage after attack release … this means you take more damage the later an attack hits, this would make overheadlookdown less effective and also opening a window for parrys because fast attacks would not do as much damage as full swings.



  • @DarkSymphony:

    Feinting doesn’t break the game. It breaks the way some people want to play it. “Reactions only, please! I don’t want anyone out-thinking me as well!”

    Here: your opponent flips a coin. He hides it behind his back, and forces you to call it. If you lose, has he out thought you? Surprise: there is nothing strategic or deep about feinting. It’s just a game of coinflips. It has exactly the same depth as who gets the ball first in a game of football.

    You’re going to have to stop trying to defend feints with “lolbuzzwords.”



  • @DSMatticus:

    @DarkSymphony:

    Feinting doesn’t break the game. It breaks the way some people want to play it. “Reactions only, please! I don’t want anyone out-thinking me as well!”

    Here: your opponent flips a coin. He hides it behind his back, and forces you to call it. If you lose, has he out thought you? Surprise: there is nothing strategic or deep about feinting. It’s just a game of coinflips. It has exactly the same depth as who gets the ball first in a game of football.

    You’re going to have to stop trying to defend feints with “lolbuzzwords.”

    You are still looking at a tiny tiny tiny piece of any fight. This scenario you describe is a situation where the defender has already lost, and any feint he successfully parries is either because the opponent is bad at feinting properly or the defender is good at spotting attack patterns (aka, bad feinter), or he simply got extremely lucky.

    Martin, your post was excellent and I do agree with you. I’ve already supported the removal of feint spam. Getting 2 or more tries because you’re too bad to feint them properly the first time isn’t fair for the defender, and encourages sloppy offensive feint play from attackers.



  • You cannot react to them from up close. It doesn’t matter if it’s a dagger or the maul. You cannot. You’re wrong, and I will happily prove it to you if you want.



  • IMO this thread should be closed already, there’s multiple other posts she can put her opinion in AND if she spent a little time reading those other posts maybe then she could be more constructive.



  • @azeal_azrael:

    Anyway that is all I wanted to say. If anyone has anything they wish to dispute feel welcome. If you feel everything I said is poop, feel free to say so. However, please give a logical, and educated reason as to why my arguement is poop.

    @azeal_azrael:

    I assume you mean to prove me wrong? Even if that is not the case, I am not interested.


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