Archer Secondaries



  • I’m a little mixed on how I wanted this topic to go, since I primarily want to discuss two things I find currently problematic: the Saber, and the Daggers. Initially, I was going to make two separate topics. However, these are all fairly related, and the other weapons are naturally part of the equation, so here we go.

    As always, we want to figure out where the weapons are, why they’re there, where they should be, and how we can get them there. But I want to emphasize the “where they should be” part, because I don’t think it’s very clear-cut as to how powerful Archer melee weapons should be.

    Ever since I first saw the Saber, I found it appealing (simply by virtue of aesthetics, really). But as time went on I realized just how outclassed the weapon seemed to be, not only compared to the Broadsword (which can be justified, since it’s not a Primary) but also to the other Light Weapons.

    Since I realized this, I’ve used the Cudgel. It has good range (marginally less than the Saber, about the same as the Dane Axe), great speed, and excellent damage (plus the usefulness of Blunt Damage). Eventually, I realized there was very little reason to use anything else. By virtue of my own oddities, I began to use Daggers instead.

    I’ve heard they were weak. At first, I believed it. Some initial experiences led me to believe Daggers were far better than I thought, but even more use of it made me realize how crippling their short ranges were. It’s trivial to miss attacks against targets you’re touching, simply because they’re backing up.

    So, let’s back up. The Cudgel is seemingly the most effective Archer secondary. It can two-shot an Archer in the head (though both hits must be in the head) while the Saber only needs one hit. However, the Saber needs five headshots to kill a Knight with the Overhead, while a Cudgel needs only three. The Shortsword, reliant on its thrust, can three-shot a Knight as well, but can also two-shot a Vanguard given two headshots.

    Meanwhile, Daggers all around have pitiful HTK across the board, but have extremely fast speeds. However, they suffer from cripplingly short range, and an even heavier stamina drain upon parry than the Light Weapons (to my knowledge). As a fringe benefit, they draw faster than Light Weapons. That’s about it.

    I could cite stats all day, but it wouldn’t accomplish much here, I feel. I don’t have much more to add, so I’m going to leave this one mostly up to you. No poll this time, either; I can’t think of a concise (hurr hurr) question to ask that encompasses the topics here.

    Before I make this post too brief, however, I’d like to throw an idea out there: assuming Daggers are found to be needlessly weak, they can be given an even more potent Backstab bonus; 75% or so. If Light Weapons are too strong, they can have their backstab bonus reduced or taken away; 25% or none at all (much like what’s been proposed for Javelins).

    As for the Saber? The Shortsword deals 50 Pierce with its thrust, and the Cudgel deals 50 Blunt with its overhead. Meanwhile, the Saber only gets 45 Swing on its Overhead, and it’s the slowest Light Weapon. Is that worth what little reach you gain? I don’t think so, especially considering Swing is arguably the least useful damage type. It could stand to gain 5 damage on its Overhead, or a small speed buff. That, or the Cudgel and Shortsword should be brought down a bit.



  • Yeah I agree the Sabre is lacking and I suggested a bit of a damage buff a while back (since slash is incredibly weak as stated) as a minimum to make it more attractive against the Cudgel and Shortsword. I’ve always maintained daggers are lacking too, and we should be seeing the damage types fixed next patch hopefully (essentially giving a minor boost to dagger overheads, they will become stab types), with the Hunting Knife reverting to the standard 1h animations.



  • The sabre’s problem is that an archer is not really in a position to use it. It is good only against lighter classes and archer vs. archer in a melee is a highly unlikely set-up while archer vs. MaA is pretty much screwed (MaA has everything better in a melee… better armor, potentially shield, better weapons, better mobility, dodge,…) - archers just can’t stand their ground against equally skilled MaA.

    So the only remaining opponents are vanguards and knights against whom blunt weapons are much more efficient. So the sabre is kind of superfluous for archers… but it looks pretty good on all classes anyway:) If we are really talking about superfluous weapons, many more should be evaluated… Heavy crossbow, heavy javelin, sling, hunting knife, short sword, hatchett, sprinkler, quarterstaff, throwing knife, greatsword, one of the spears, polehammer, messer, double axe, flails… If those went out, I doubt many people would really miss them.



  • @Eleshar_Vermillion:

    The sabre’s problem is that an archer is not really in a position to use it. It is good only against lighter classes and archer vs. archer in a melee is a highly unlikely set-up while archer vs. MaA is pretty much screwed (MaA has everything better in a melee… better armor, potentially shield, better weapons, better mobility, dodge,…) - archers just can’t stand their ground against equally skilled MaA.

    So the only remaining opponents are vanguards and knights against whom blunt weapons are much more efficient. So the sabre is kind of superfluous for archers… but it looks pretty good on all classes anyway:) If we are really talking about superfluous weapons, many more should be evaluated… Heavy crossbow, heavy javelin, sling, hunting knife, short sword, hatchett, sprinkler, quarterstaff, throwing knife, greatsword, one of the spears, polehammer, messer, double axe, flails… If those went out, I doubt many people would really miss them.

    I feel this is one of those instances where balance is not nearly as obvious as it seems. It’s seemed like even the devs themselves were unaware of how much less useful Swing is, as a damage type. Thus the Saber should be statistically superior to the Cudgel, because of this. Another factor is the Saber can basically only deal Swing damage; its pierce attack (much like other weapons, the Falchion and Messer for example) is very lackluster. Which can be fine, but its Overhead and Slash oughta be damned potent for it.

    As for “superfluous weapons,” you have a point. But they’re not redundant; the Messer, for instance, is the only bastard sword that can two-shot Knights. That gives it a niche. Weapons may be quite similar, but they can almost always be given a niche, even if it’s a shallow one. It’s okay for two weapons to share a niche, as long as there’s a difference in playstyle to warrant the existence of both weapons.

    @Martin:

    Yeah I agree the Sabre is lacking and I suggested a bit of a damage buff a while back (since slash is incredibly weak as stated) as a minimum to make it more attractive against the Cudgel and Shortsword. I’ve always maintained daggers are lacking too, and we should be seeing the damage types fixed next patch hopefully (essentially giving a minor boost to dagger overheads, they will become stab types), with the Hunting Knife reverting to the standard 1h animations.

    This is comforting to hear! It’s a bit of excellent foresight that the Hunting Knife return to Overhead swipes, while the other ones get icepick thrusts.

    I’m just curious as to whether or not it’s economical for the Daggers to receive increased model sizes, so they both look beefier and have longer hit traces. As I mentioned before, they’re ridiculously unreliable (especially the Hunting Knife) and I feel just a liiiiiiittle more range would push them into usable territory. Maybe even just the animations could be tweaked for range, since it doesn’t seem like the character’s arm goes out as much as it could, especially with the Slash.



  • Daggers should definitely get some boost. Right now they arer shorter then fists, slower and they are not really much stronger (vanguard can be taken by the same amount of hits with a dagger and with fists). This is really preposterous.



  • With the help of Martin, I’ve managed to capture some screenshots that should make obvious the issue with Daggers and their Slash animations.

    This is the Dagger Slash attack with the Hunting Knife.

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f … =128810447

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f … =128810460

    Compare with the Shield:

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f … =128810481

    The animation needs to be cleaned up, polished, or just reverted to back when they were the same as the Shield slash animation. The loss of range really does make the difference, especially with the shortest weapon in the game.



  • I think daggers should get love as quick-draw weapons making them very useful for an archer. Right now they draw 0.1 seconds faster than other 1H weapons and 0.2 faster than 2H weapons. Also the short sword shares the dagger quick draw and is a better weapon in every way.

    If we gave daggers a super fast, maybe 0.2 faster than now, draw speed they would have a clear niche.

    As for the sabre I think nerfing the cudgel would make it better. Just a straight up damage nerf, it felt kind of silly having it be a really good anti-knight weapon on an archer. Then we have shortsword for damage, sabre for reach and cudgel for anti-armor.



  • I like the idea of a 75% bonus for dagger backstab. I also think that the overhead should count somewhat as a pierce/swing, since it acts more like a stab than a swing. Also, the range needs fixing. I say fixing because, as OP pointed out, you can be touching them but if they are backing up you won’t hit them.



  • If archers need a buff it should be applied to ranged weapons. They are at a disadvantage in melee as they should be. That said, the idea of increasing the draw speed of daggers is a good one. It would give an archer a good reason to use a dagger.



  • Daggers should be able to do this.

    2QTxWnriPO4



  • By looking at all the experienced archers I’ve faced in matches, it appears that the Cudgel is the favourite archer secondary weapon due to its Reach & Damage. In second, we may spot a few archers using the shortsword with a very deadly fliching style but I’m yet to see an decen archer with Saber which may never really happend due to the Sabers weak stats, although just a heads up. Out of the three weapons; Cudgel, Shortsword and Saber, the saber has most range ( reach + release ) of all three weapons on all three attack, so with some practice to exploit that tactic, it might give the archers atleast an slightly edge IF they are using it. But the range itself can’t make the weapon somewhat competing against shortsword and Cudgel, a damage increase would be great for this.

    As for the three different variations of the daggers, well daggers aren’t that much powerful, as they are suppose to be daggers afterall! But in the hands of an skilled fighter, it can be a really good Flinching weapon. I use daggers myself when using light crossbow, combining the power of the light crossbow, to weaken my foe enough to put us both at equal chance when I pull out my daggers and face him melee.
    All it takes for him to kill me is about two or one hit, while IF I get a shot at him, I only need one…one fucking rapid one.

    Daggers would turn out nice if they had some increase to backstab damage, should not be class-based bonus so that Man-at arms whom also can wield the daggers can also take advantage of this damage increase IF they manage to sneak upon their enemies.



  • I’d like to see daggers have similar range as fists. It makes sense, yeah?

    Slash attacks should be converted into something like a “hook punch” type stab imo. This would help get around shields but not be totally unrealistic…

    Jab stabs should be a long reach stab, but less power.

    “Uppercut” stabs should have more power and be shorter range just like punches but different animations… Maybe an over-the-head “seriel killer” stab kinda like the Psycho shower scene stab they have now…



  • once i had to hit a knight seven times with my dagger to kill him.



  • @soni2295:

    once i had to hit a knight seven times with my dagger to kill him.

    once I hit a knight in the back twice and he died… or was that a vanguard? :?



  • @NikolaiLev:

    _
    What do you mean? The Saber’s stab has great reach and deals with MAAs in as many hits as the shorter Cudgel. It’s simply not suited to taking down the heavier classes, which makes the Cudgel more popular as an all-around answer. Saber vs Vanguard does decently well too, again because the stab is very good range-wise._



  • @Daiyuki:

    What do you mean? The Saber’s stab has great reach and deals with MAAs in as many hits as the shorter Cudgel. It’s simply not suited to taking down the heavier classes, which makes the Cudgel more popular as an all-around answer. Saber vs Vanguard does decently well too, again because the stab is very good range-wise.

    Sure, except the Saber Stab 4 hits a Vanguard in the torso. It needs a headshot to bring it up to 3 hits. Meanwhile, a Shortsword can kill a Vanguard in two headshots, and is faster. The Saber’s all around slower than either weapon.

    40 Pierce Damage is pretty meager, even with the Saber’s reach (which really isn’t all that special to begin with).



  • @NikolaiLev:

    @Daiyuki:

    What do you mean? The Saber’s stab has great reach and deals with MAAs in as many hits as the shorter Cudgel. It’s simply not suited to taking down the heavier classes, which makes the Cudgel more popular as an all-around answer. Saber vs Vanguard does decently well too, again because the stab is very good range-wise.

    Sure, except the Saber Stab 4 hits a Vanguard in the torso. It needs a headshot to bring it up to 3 hits. Meanwhile, a Shortsword can kill a Vanguard in two headshots, and is faster. The Saber’s all around slower than either weapon.

    40 Pierce Damage is pretty meager, even with the Saber’s reach (which really isn’t all that special to begin with).

    It’s always seemed like a mini-polearm to me in how it handles. Long poke, long release time so it just kind of hangs there for a bit, ready to spear you if you run into it. It’s certainly rare though, so maybe the ones I’ve fought were just great with it =p I don’t notice the damage drop as MAA either



  • archer secondaries are broken as hell, that is all i hv to say



  • @Jstorm:

    archer secondaries are broken as hell, that is all i hv to say

    How are they broken? Please explain your assertion. Just making a statement without and arguments or evidence doesn’t really add anything to the discussion.



  • @Genocide:

    Daggers should be able to do this.

    2QTxWnriPO4

    OnTopic:
    I think all in all
    Torn banner needs 2take a step back, and go through its huge arsenal.
    Making every single weapon Unique, with its own niche with Accurate stats(Shields&all).
    It wouldnt be balanced per say…but it would bring many different playstyles.

    If not that.
    Just the reanalyzing of its arsenal.


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