Discussion: How can we change feinting to improve the game?



  • Mod Edit: The original poster’s post is here viewtopic.php?f=84&t=11209#p100894 due to a merge.
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    First let’s get this out of the way:
    Who am I? Just another overeager idiot who thinks he has the magic solution to feints.

    We good? Okay.

    I will start by mumbling a lot of boring things about luck then about more boring things which you probably already know. Skip down to MY SOLUTION to actually read my solution.

    Many people seem to think a luck element in a game is an unholy sin against god. Me? I think that it’s a necessity. Let us consider Tic-Tac-Toe. I’m sure a few people can already guess where I’m going with this. A match of Tic-Tac-Toe between two perfect players always ends in a draw. Better yet, search for an only Tic-Tac-Toe game against a computer. You might notice a difficulty setting for the computer. It is impossible to win against the computer on its maximum difficulty setting. What the difficulty does is it determines the probability in which the computer will throw the game.

    Without a luck element, in a theoretical perfect duel between two perfect players in Chivalry, there are only 3 possibilities:

    1. The endless stalemate. Much like Tic-Tac-Toe, it turns out that the perfect play between two perfect players is a draw.
    2. Disadvantaged Player 2. In this case, it turns out that the player that moves first wins.
    3. Disadvantaged Player 1. In this case, it turns out that the player that moves second wins.

    As this is theoretical it’s impossible to know which of those cases Chivalry would fall under, but I personally think they’re all things that should be avoided, and a simple luck element serves that purpose.

    Now, to actual feints. I don’t know how anyone can even contest that feints are not luck, but in case they do, I will say it clearly, feints absolutely are a luck element. There are two ways to deal with feints. They are PREDICTION or AVOIDANCE. Prediction is gambling. Avoidance is not taking the bet. Prediction is making the assumption that their attack is a feint, and charging into what should be danger. Avoidance means keeping your distance against that opponent, and DELAYING when you MUST make a prediction.

    Okay, so what’s the problem with feints if they’re a luck mechanic and games need a luck element?

    This is mainly my opinion, but I feel it’s because they have an attitude that does not match with the rest of the game. Chivalry as a whole is a Reactive game. Everything the opponent does can be responded to with an appropriate action that you have learned. Feints, however are a Predictive element. You can still react to it, but whether your action is correct or not is complete luck. Furthermore, feinting punishes you for responding APPROPRIATELY to an action. You SHOULD parry an attack that you can’t dodge. It’s what the game teaches you to do.

    As you may be able to imagine, this causes a LOT of frustration. “I had to work for every single hit I got on him, but he just pushes the free damage button and I’m dead? For doing what I’m SUPPOSED to be doing? Screw this.”

    Now this is the part where I’m likely going to lose many of you. I do not think feints are an overpowered mechanic. I do not think is is a broken mechanic.

    I think they’re an anti-fun mechanic.

    There are many ways to tackle this problem, as we’ve seen in many other topics. Here is mine.

    MY SOLUTION

    Okay, first take a deep breath. I know this is going to immediately set some of you off, but…

    Feint-Attacks should receive a 25-50% damage reduction.

    For clarification, I am defining a “Feint-Attack” as an attack that’s queued in a certain window of time immediately after feinting. This window of time will basically be the amount of time in which the player can attack and hit a player before they can parry again. I don’t know the numbers, so I’ll leave it for the devs or the more knowledgeable players what the ideal time frame will be.

    So why this change? It’s because it will reduce the weight felt by a player who is feinted. I believe that when being feinted one should feel “Oh! AH! Hahaha! Nice feint man!” not “Seriously, THIS crap again?!”.

    Feints will still be effective. They will still often be a free hit. The main difference is that it makes it more bearable for the person who is feinted. They should feel amused that they’ve been cleverly fooled, not frustrated at being punished for something that in their minds, they shouldn’t have been punished for.

    And with that, I have presented my idea. What do you think?



  • @DemonicChocobo:

    This is mainly my opinion, but I feel it’s because they have an attitude that does not match with the rest of the game. Chivalry as a whole is a Reactive game. Everything the opponent does can be responded to with an appropriate action that you have learned. Feints, however are a Predictive element. You can still react to it, but whether your action is correct or not is complete luck. Furthermore, feinting punishes you for responding APPROPRIATELY to an action. You SHOULD parry an attack that you can’t dodge. It’s what the game teaches you to do.

    This is a very good point and I think highlights why people are so frustrated with it, yet nobody I’ve seen has described the reason quite so well. So, kudos.

    Your idea is pretty good. I think one thing to consider is that a 2h is already so slow that by the time it normally would hit, the person that was feinted will have already recovered. In this scenario, a good tactic to use for the 2h player is to look down for the instant hit. Your idea is pretty good to help alleviate that.

    I also have been advocating the idea of damage lowered based on where in the swing arc it is, so the beginning and end of a swing arc to less damage than in the middle - especially for slashes. I think maybe an argument could be made for how the damage is varied depends greatly on the weapon and swing type, but overall these are decent ideas. I also think 2h should get a bash attack, which could potentially be used to interrupt an attack/feint. 1h’s already get a shield, and shields are anti-feint.



  • We need to clarify that only close-range or very late feints are a problem. Feints close to maximum range of a weapon or very fast feints are not a problem to block if you simply wait for the actual swing, but there are ways to make an attack land right after the windup. That is the issue, not ALL feints that ever existed.



  • If we have to keep feint this would be my preferred solution.



  • Predicting your opponent’s behavior is something you see in martial arts and is fun and interesting to me. I like the fact that there’s always some risk no matter how high your skill, though I admit it could be a limit on the skill ceiling (I’m a pub player, so I don’t get a whole lot of opportunities to fight with the very best).

    Haven’t given it too much thought yet but a small damage penalty for feinting seems reasonable (something that would increase the hits-to-kill number by 1, i.e. an extra chance to recover from being explicitly tricked rather than cleanly hit).



  • @Daiyuki:

    We need to clarify that only close-range or very late feints are a problem. Feints close to maximum range of a weapon or very fast feints are not a problem to block if you simply wait for the actual swing, but there are ways to make an attack land right after the windup. That is the issue, not ALL feints that ever existed.

    Yikes, yeah, it occurs to me I never even mentioned distance. Much of the “luck” is at close range or with long windup attacks(Particularly stabs) where you can keep waiting late into the windup or pretty much CHANGE YOUR MIND and uncommit from a sure-to-fail stab. Both of which are very difficult to read(if not impossible).



  • I’d rather they shorthen the time frame in how long you can draw out a feint.



  • So it’s no secret that previous threads about feinting never make it very far into actually talking about ways to fix, improve, or change it. They tend to just go in circles talking about the same thing over and over again. I want to avoid that cycle and actually get some productive discussion on how feinting could be improved (from a balance and design perspective).

    For the purpose of this thread we are going to ASSUME that feinting is staying in the game but being changed from how it is now. Based on that assumption let’s come up with ideas so that we can be productive and maybe help the devs out as they work on the next patch. Even if you like feints the way they are now please stay ontopic and don’t derail things in this thread. Please be civil and just talk about ways that you think you can improve gameplay by changing feints. Please also keep in mind that suggestions don’t have to be a “one and done” approach, we can have multiple game changes that all work together to change how feinting works from how it is now.

    Here are some ideas I’ve seen in previous threads so far, I’m just putting it all out there good or bad (and I’m sure I’m forgetting some). Feel free to come up with new suggestions and post them as well!

    -Separate feinting and canceling attacks to parry

    -Make parries holdable
    The idea behind this old suggestion is to let players hold their parries like a shield. Parrying as it is now would still work but if they hold it into a block they can take reduced damage

    -Make parrying shorter
    Right now when you parry it lasts .5 seconds. People have suggested lowing it to .2 so people can use it more accurately and often

    -Make parrying have no animation from other players’ perspectives

    -Remove combo feinting

    -Change feinting so that instead of completely halting your swing it just transitions it into a different type of swing, like a combo

    -Add a time limit to how late in the windup you can feint

    -Increase cooldown on feints

    -Slow down feinting animations

    -Increase the stamina cost of feints

    -Introduce a “punch/pommel bash” mechanic that is meant to interrupt feints



  • @Dr.Nick:

    -Separate feinting and canceling attacks to parry
    Adding an extra key for no reason. I think one key fits all in this case.

    -Make parries holdable
    This completely changes how the game is played, and the point of shields. Do not like this at all.

    -Make parrying shorter
    This one is interesting. Would take quite a while for players to adjust, but would this make the game way too hard for noobie players?

    -Make parrying have no animation from other players’ perspectives
    This one destroys so many keys for attackers as well as taking something very core to the game away. Which is seeing your enemy block your friend’s sword.

    -Remove combo feinting
    Increased Stamina should fix this. Plus combo feinting has other uses besides scaring your opponent into a block.

    -Change feinting so that instead of completely halting your swing it just transitions it into a different type of swing, like a combo
    This one is also interesting, not sure how it would work or solve the problem. The first attack is still scaring you and causing you to fall for it. I guess this could stop combo feinting though

    -Increase cooldown on feints
    I like combo feinting for reasons other than combat. I think stamina cost increase is a better solution.

    -Slow down feinting animations
    If you slow it down to the point where the opponent is able to get blocks off one after the other, then the purpose of the feint is lost.

    -Increase the stamina cost of feints
    I am fine with this one, make you earn your feints. Thought in actuality this will be a nerf to MAA’s while classes like the Knight will still be fine since they don’t have dodge sapping their stamina.

    -Introduce a “punch/pommel bash” mechanic that is meant to interrupt feints
    Definitely OP. If you can stop a feint, then you can stop every single attack. Slower two handers would hate life.

    Don’t like at all
    Its so so
    If it happens, I’d be cool with it.



  • Since this is supposed to include both good and bad ideas, here is something I threw out there on a whim a while back:

    Damage penalty to attacks performed immediately after a feint. [[url=http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=10166]Explanation]



  • @DemonicChocobo:

    Since this is supposed to include both good and bad ideas, here is something I threw out there on a whim a while back:

    Damage penalty to attacks performed immediately after a feint. [[url=http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=10166]Explanation]

    I forgot to add that to my other post. I am also in favor of reduced damage after a feint. Sorry spear users…



  • I came up with a suggestion a short while ago which solves a few of the things I didn’t like about feints, such as the lack of downsides and the ability to do it over and over without consequence, but most of all, keep things in such as “cancelling attacks” (to not hit teammates) and parrying during windup and the feint’s actual purpose when it was conceived just before the game was released - to force an opponent to parry so they become hit during their recovery. In its simplest form, it is an amalgamation of these two things listed in the OP:

    • Separate feinting and canceling attacks to parry
    • Change feinting so that instead of completely halting your swing it just transitions it into a different type of swing, like a combo

    So here goes:

    There are two keys - the feint key (which for all intents and purposes, I’ll dub it LMB-during-windup as default) and windup-parry key (which will be hitting RMB during a windup by default). Quite simply, at any point during your windup, you can hit RMB which automatically transitions into a parry (so no more having to press RMB twice to parry attacks), this is useful for “feint-parries” or just reactive parries if you feel your opponents windups might beat you to it. If you hit LMB during your windup, the windup will cancel, and immediately transition into an attack from the opposite side, for example, if you perform a right to left swing and hit LMB during the windup, you will then return to idle and immediately perform a left to right swing, the reverse is also true. Feinting during a stab will transition into stabs, and feinting during overheads will transition into alt overheads (or the reverse of this). There is no simple ‘return to idle’ key which provides the abuse it does now. You either commit to a feint, or commit to a parry during the windup (which conveniently is free to do, meaning you don’t have to waste 15 stamina to not hit a teammate or feint/windup parry, you only lose the stamina lost when parrying the blow), no more easy mode second chances when you screw up. You can’t feint a feinted attack, but you can parry during a feinted attack. This, I believe, will finally give feints that downside they need when you mistakenly commit to a wrong action, just like if you attack but are out of range, you can be hit during your recovery, or flinched during your combo. What’s also good about this is that it requires no additional animation work whatsoever (except probably a blend between windup and parry), just a few changes in lines of code.



  • Decrease the feint window - this might need individual tweaking for each weapon, especially ones with slow windups that are easier to discern like the maul that need feinting to give it viability.



  • @Dr.:

    -Separate feinting and canceling attacks to parry
    Not sure what you’re getting at or what you’re trying to accomplish. Making them separate game functions doesn’t really change anything unless you also change something about one relative to the other. It just adds another button.

    -Make parries holdable
    The idea behind this old suggestion is to let players hold their parries like a shield. Parrying as it is now would still work but if they hold it into a block they can take reduced damage
    Becoming increasingly positive about this. I would implement it as something like:
    Tap RMB to parry. Anytime during your parry, you can press and hold RMB to sustain that parry. A held parry drains stamina constantly, allows chip damage, and does not allow counters. Probably add kick against held parry as free hit, just like shield. Parry recovery begins as soon as you let go. Shields still have the advantage that they shield you from projectiles and that they don’t have the same downsides of constant stam drain/chip like a held parry.

    -Make parrying shorter
    Right now when you parry it lasts .5 seconds. People have suggested lowing it to .2 so people can use it more accurately and often
    Terrible idea. Having a parry shorter than every release in the game means that hits during routine combat will just magic through your parry based on how late in the swing you get smacked.

    -Make parrying have no animation from other players’ perspectives
    No.

    -Remove combo feinting
    Doesn’t really address the issue, it just forces you (if your weapon has a slow recovery) to either commit to a combo (and likely get parried) or hand tempo to your opponent for him to feint or not feint at you. Or go for a hit trade. Not really a desirable outcome. Also, combo>feint to negate your recovery is no longer possible, which means MaA/1hers win Chivalry forever.

    -Change feinting so that instead of completely halting your swing it just transitions it into a different type of swing, like a combo
    Honestly, just too much work to really be feasible relative to some other options.

    -Increase cooldown on feints
    I’m confused by this as well. Right now, “feint cooldown” refers to the time of the feint animation. But since you have that below, I assume you mean create some kind of cooldown on how often you can feint. Nerfs defensive feinting, doesn’t really address the issue.

    -Slow down feinting animations
    This pretty much stealth nerfs them into offensive uselessness or does nothing to them at all, with no inbetween. “being able to fit a hit in during your opponent’s parry and recovery” is pretty much binary. Either you can or you can’t. At the edge cases, it actually encourages feinting early so you’ll recover sooner and your opponent’s feint will be worthless. And that’s totally unintuitive.

    -Increase the stamina cost of feints
    Again, doesn’t really address the issue. Stamina is super easy to get back right now anyway.

    -Introduce a “punch/pommel bash” mechanic that is meant to interrupt feints
    Being able to kick out of parry/parry recovery would do this. I’m not sure that’s really a good thing, though, because being able to interrupt attacks like that is super powerful.

    You also missed “add a limit to how late into the windup you can feint,” which retains all the uses of feints (including faking your opponent into an early block), but makes it such that instead of forcing a mistake out of your opponent by virtue of the limits of human reaction speed, the opponent actually has to make a mistake and parry at your fake. In that way, it’s just another tool in the arsenal and less the central aspect of the game.



  • I have differing feelings on these points, however, i’m not going to make a wall of text about it.
    People need to decide what part of feinting they have a problem with. I think the current implementation/logistical side of it is pretty good.
    -Feint should require one key only
    -Should not be difficult to use, it doesn’t need to be convoluted to the point where only veteran players can make use of it.
    -bare in mind that if you start changing times for feint it needs to be weighed up against the fact that you can accelerate and SLOW down swings. So a short feint will not necessarily be better.
    If people consider these aspects then a workable solution may be found.
    Bare in mind that walls of text and quoting walls of text will not help the dev’s one iota.



  • Feint will be reactable if the desync issue is fixed. I posted this in other thread but my suggested fix is to make the hit tracer lag behind the animation model. To elaborate, ill copy and paste:

    "With about 400+ hours spent on this game i came to accept and enjoy almost all aspect of the game except one thing: animation discrepancy between attacker’s screen and defender’s screen.

    You guys already know about the desync issue; how attacker’s animation lags behind on the defender’s point-of-view. This allows players to run around a defender and attack at the side. However that is not why i hate the desync.

    Countless times, i wait until the last second of a weapon windup to react to feints. I have a 120hz monitor so reacting to feints is pretty easy. However i often get hit because the enemy’s swing actually is faster than how it looks on my screen. So even if i block at 0.39 sec of a 0.4 sec windup, the weapon is already deep into the release. It’s not possible to parry at the last possible second of a windup. On my 120 hz monitor i often see my character getting hit before the weapon actually reaches. In singleplayer with bots, there is no issue.

    I think weapon hit tracer should be changed so that it lags behind the animation to compensate for lag."



  • @DSMatticus:

    You also missed “add a limit to how late into the windup you can feint,” which retains all the uses of feints (including faking your opponent into an early block), but makes it such that instead of forcing a mistake out of your opponent by virtue of the limits of human reaction speed, the opponent actually has to make a mistake and parry at your fake. In that way, it’s just another tool in the arsenal and less the central aspect of the game.

    Ah true that. As I wrote there was sure to be things I forgot. I’ll add that to the list.



  • What would be better is if Feint was a fixed factor. This would mean that a person either fails to identify a feint or sees it for what it is, but is not punished by people exploiting feint mechanics - Put simply if you can identify a feint successfully then you should have a fair opportunity to counter it. Identifying a feint for what it is should be enough, you shouldn’t have to deal with people exploiting small time frames which can be hidden in lag/desync/server issues/the internets etc.
    Now queue enraged cries of people upset about not being able to exploit mechanics in a computer game.



  • Make hit tracer lag behind the animation to compensate for lag and to stop weapons registering hits before the animation reaches you. Feint is somewhat reactable right now if you try to parry at the last second. It’s the fact that weapons hit you before the animation that is making it impossible to parry at the last second.

    I often experience parrying at the last second but attacks going through. My opponent often tells me that i just stood still. So there is lag between enemy attacking and showing up on my screen, and an extra lag between me starting a parry and showing up on enemy’s screen.

    The game needs to check both the defender and the attackers views like mount and blade. The game Needs to check if the defender blocked it and then decide whether a damage should be done. This is how it is in BF3 after they fixed the hit regi on BC2.



  • Three simple tweaks

    Only allow feinting in the first 70-90 percent of windup time. (percentage could change)

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    Once you finish windup and start release add in an audio queue. This will alert your opponent as to when you finally commit to an attack. Something like a grunt or a simple huaaaahhh would do the trick

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    Add in something to reduce feint spam (cooldown or stamina change).
    Make the stamina usage for feints scale within a x second window, 10/10/15/20 and so on for each feint. (numbers could be changed)

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    These simple things would keep feint intact as is but will also help reduce the frustration against feints

    I have and always will believe that feints add to the game in a positive way and no major overhaul is necessary(does need some tweaks though).


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