Discussion: How can we change feinting to improve the game?



  • What would be better is if Feint was a fixed factor. This would mean that a person either fails to identify a feint or sees it for what it is, but is not punished by people exploiting feint mechanics - Put simply if you can identify a feint successfully then you should have a fair opportunity to counter it. Identifying a feint for what it is should be enough, you shouldn’t have to deal with people exploiting small time frames which can be hidden in lag/desync/server issues/the internets etc.
    Now queue enraged cries of people upset about not being able to exploit mechanics in a computer game.



  • Make hit tracer lag behind the animation to compensate for lag and to stop weapons registering hits before the animation reaches you. Feint is somewhat reactable right now if you try to parry at the last second. It’s the fact that weapons hit you before the animation that is making it impossible to parry at the last second.

    I often experience parrying at the last second but attacks going through. My opponent often tells me that i just stood still. So there is lag between enemy attacking and showing up on my screen, and an extra lag between me starting a parry and showing up on enemy’s screen.

    The game needs to check both the defender and the attackers views like mount and blade. The game Needs to check if the defender blocked it and then decide whether a damage should be done. This is how it is in BF3 after they fixed the hit regi on BC2.



  • Three simple tweaks

    Only allow feinting in the first 70-90 percent of windup time. (percentage could change)

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    Once you finish windup and start release add in an audio queue. This will alert your opponent as to when you finally commit to an attack. Something like a grunt or a simple huaaaahhh would do the trick

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    Add in something to reduce feint spam (cooldown or stamina change).
    Make the stamina usage for feints scale within a x second window, 10/10/15/20 and so on for each feint. (numbers could be changed)

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    These simple things would keep feint intact as is but will also help reduce the frustration against feints

    I have and always will believe that feints add to the game in a positive way and no major overhaul is necessary(does need some tweaks though).



  • @giantyak:

    What would be better is if Feint was a fixed factor. This would mean that a person either fails to identify a feint or sees it for what it is, but is not punished by people exploiting feint mechanics - Put simply if you can identify a feint successfully then you should have a fair opportunity to counter it. Identifying a feint for what it is should be enough, you shouldn’t have to deal with people exploiting small time frames which can be hidden in lag/desync/server issues/the internets etc.
    Now queue enraged cries of people upset about not being able to exploit mechanics in a computer game.

    I have to agree completely with this and it would be my preferred fix. Make feints reactable with a keen eye and cool patience and I’ll be happy.

    @boomandvibe:

    Make hit tracer lag behind the animation to compensate for lag and to stop weapons registering hits before the animation reaches you. Feint is somewhat reactable right now if you try to parry at the last second. It’s the fact that weapons hit you before the animation that is making it impossible to parry at the last second.

    If you really think it’s reactable I’ll put 30$ on the table that says you can’t block 5 feints. Anyways this is getting offtopic already so let’s keep it PMs if we do talk about that stuff.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    For the purpose of this thread we are going to ASSUME that feinting is staying in the game but being changed from how it is now.

    there we go
    now was that so hard? :]

    good luck figuring out how to make it more fun but still keeping it as a way to counter parries!



  • @Dr.Nick:

    @giantyak:

    What would be better is if Feint was a fixed factor. This would mean that a person either fails to identify a feint or sees it for what it is, but is not punished by people exploiting feint mechanics - Put simply if you can identify a feint successfully then you should have a fair opportunity to counter it. Identifying a feint for what it is should be enough, you shouldn’t have to deal with people exploiting small time frames which can be hidden in lag/desync/server issues/the internets etc.
    Now queue enraged cries of people upset about not being able to exploit mechanics in a computer game.

    I have to agree completely with this and it would be my preferred fix. Make feints reactable with a keen eye and cool patience and I’ll be happy.

    @boomandvibe:

    Make hit tracer lag behind the animation to compensate for lag and to stop weapons registering hits before the animation reaches you. Feint is somewhat reactable right now if you try to parry at the last second. It’s the fact that weapons hit you before the animation that is making it impossible to parry at the last second.

    If you really think it’s reactable I’ll put 30$ on the table that says you can’t block 5 feints. Anyways this is getting offtopic already so let’s keep it PMs if we do talk about that stuff.

    Even if i block 5 feints you wouldnt pay me shit. Just because you cant do something doesnt mean everyone cant do it. You know why i can? Because i have a 144 hz 1 ms response monitor and running the game at 90 fps stable. My point is that feint currently is somewhat reactable but would be more reliable if hit tracer doesnt move in front of animation. I can parry for hours when i practice with a bot even if it feints often. It’s harder in multiplayer because hit tracer is actually faster than the animation.

    Also if you are sitting around trying to block feints in a fight, you are playing it wrong. If you were allowed to block every single feint, there would be no point in having feint



  • +1



  • We should primarily focus on suggestions that alleviate the need for 50/50 guesswork/impossible human reaction times to defend against feints.

    Facehugging feints and especially lookdown overhead feints give you literally hundreths of a second of reaction time to determine if it’s an attack or a well executed feint performed in the last milliseconds of a windup.

    Decreasing the feint window/allowing feinting to be done within 70-90 % of a windup is probably the best solution so far yet there are still feinting advocates who fallaciously maintain that giving players even slightly extra reaction time to discern feints from attack would render feints useless which is far from being true.
    The guesswork for defending against good feints needs to go.



  • No…
    This is why you fall to feints because your playing to the other persons game. Why not just forget about his feints, just look at his footwork and win. By doing this you remove the guessing game in your head and feinting then becomes meaningless in the game, because your looking at his footwork and not his feint. ;)



  • Make Feints Forced, similar to Parries.

    What I mean by this is that if you want to feint, you don’t get to decide last second that you’ll feint onnce you see a parry coming up. You decide it as an action that will feint then swing. So if they decide to attack during your feint you can’t suddenly decide to block instead.



  • @boomandvibe:

    Feint will be reactable if the desync issue is fixed.

    Completely untrue. You can put the start of the hit tracer inside your opponent. You can feint at the end of windup, right before hittracers are drawn. Reducing desync and reducing ping improve the range at which you can react to feints, but the worst case facehug scenario is still basically a 0.0s difference. You just can’t do it.



  • @DSMatticus:

    @boomandvibe:

    Feint will be reactable if the desync issue is fixed.

    Completely untrue. You can put the start of the hit tracer inside your opponent. You can feint at the end of windup, right before hittracers are drawn. Reducing desync and reducing ping improve the range at which you can react to feints, but the worst case facehug scenario is still basically a 0.0s difference. You just can’t do it.

    Exactly why the feint window needs to be decreased.



  • @Sir:

    @DSMatticus:

    @boomandvibe:

    Feint will be reactable if the desync issue is fixed.

    Completely untrue. You can put the start of the hit tracer inside your opponent. You can feint at the end of windup, right before hittracers are drawn. Reducing desync and reducing ping improve the range at which you can react to feints, but the worst case facehug scenario is still basically a 0.0s difference. You just can’t do it.

    Exactly why the feint window needs to be decreased.

    That’s not really a good argument. If someone is at face hugging range you kinda deserve to be at a disadvantage. Measures could and should have been taken to prevent said face hugging OR your counter measures should be in action already, thus, your opponent should either be about to die or about to receive a kick to the jimmy, if not then he has won that part of the encounter and deserves his advantage.



  • I like the idea of being able to hold RMB to block while still maintaining the current parry mechanics. As it is it’s almost impossible to actually play defensively, which seems a bit… unrealistic, for lack of a better word, and I think this would help solve that problem.

    I also think there is some merit to increasing the cooldown time on feints, and perhaps stamina use, so it doesn’t just turn combat into a ridiculous fast-paced “get as close as possible and feint spam” mishmash. Feinting should be something that is used carefully and at the proper time, not just something that is used, literally, every single attack. I don’t know how to balance it that way. I have to give it more thought… obviously it is a challenging problem. I like feinting, and I think it has a very valid place in the ebb an flow of combat, but it shouldn’t be the go-to option for every single attack or combo.



  • What i find in duels is that people try face hugging with a feint or two and see if they can get away with it. When they find that is not working then they progress to alternative tactics. So if you can deter someone from face hugging and punish them for feinting then they stop pretty quick.



  • @Sir:

    We should primarily focus on suggestions that alleviate the need for 50/50 guesswork/impossible human reaction times to defend against feints.

    Facehugging feints and especially lookdown overhead feints give you literally hundreths of a second of reaction time to determine if it’s an attack or a well executed feint performed in the last milliseconds of a windup.

    Decreasing the feint window/allowing feinting to be done within 70-90 % of a windup is probably the best solution so far yet there are still feinting advocates who fallaciously maintain that giving players even slightly extra reaction time to discern feints from attack would render feints useless which is far from being true.
    The guesswork for defending against good feints needs to go.

    Feints were designed as a counter to parry. You should be thankful that guesswork is even an option against feinters. Anything that makes feints predictable will render feints a useless waste of stamina for offence. If you really want to remove guesswork then I’d rather make feints a special attack that guarantee an unblockable hit… but we’re trying to make the game more fun, not less.



  • @giantyak:

    Measures could and should have been taken to prevent said face hugging OR your counter measures should be in action already, thus, your opponent should either be about to die or about to receive a kick to the jimmy

    You’re not going to stop someone from facehugging you if they want to. Kicking is terrible for this and always will be, because it requires control of the fight at that particular moment to perform safely. And if you have control of the fight and you’re kicking your opponent, that means you gave up a perfectly good opportunity to put your opponent on defense (which is huge disadvantage with feinting as it is) in order to create distance (back to square one).

    Keep in mind you can approach your opponent with an attack in windup, completely ready to be committed to a real attack, feinted to a defensive parry, or feinted to get around your opponent’s parry. Just sprinting straight up to someone attack ready to go does not leave you vulnerable and is not hard to do.



  • So make feints like crouch as in high risk - high reward.

    e.g. IF you a) Feint and
    b) Miss or get parried
    then
    c) You are offbalance briefly

    Though I think just increasing the stamina drain would be sufficient so that you would only use a couple in your typical fast fight.



  • I really have nothing to add there but I am glad that this topic is there. It would be wonderful if it was the last one and if it got sorted out in here finally:)



  • @DSMatticus:

    @boomandvibe:

    Feint will be reactable if the desync issue is fixed.

    Completely untrue. You can put the start of the hit tracer inside your opponent. You can feint at the end of windup, right before hittracers are drawn. Reducing desync and reducing ping improve the range at which you can react to feints, but the worst case facehug scenario is still basically a 0.0s difference. You just can’t do it.

    Sigh… All of you guys saying it’s impossible to see feints has never really taken a closer look at the animation. There is a rhythm or timing or whatever you call it. If you know all the weapon swing timings, there is a timing where you have to block. If it’s humanly possible to feint at the last possible second of windup, then it is also possible to see the weapon reach the the far back and know if a feit is coming.

    You can actually see the arm animation change before release. The only difficulty is from being able to fix your gaze at your enemy, since you have to look sideways to block and you can lose the sight of enemy’s movement.

    Im all for increasing the size of parry box (not shelds) and remove the new shield stun. Not using a shield will make you vulnerable to feints but you dont have to turn as much to block. (you need to see your enemy for the animation)


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