Consider swing momentum to calculate damage



  • There are exploits in the game that exist because swings deal the same damage as soon as they start and when they are slowing to a stop.

    There should be sweet spot when an attack is at full speed, where it does the most damage.

    The 1st second that I start a swing, it should not do any real damage at all.
    If I took a sword and swung it 2 inches, how much momentum/force would I be able to apply?
    Not much.

    This fix would correct the ducking overhead instant swing.
    And the bobbling flail which can kill someone behind you at the end of your swing, even though it slowed down to almost 0 velocity.

    By the way, there is no follow through on a flail. It loses all energy upon hitting its target.
    So, Flails should be incapable of damaging more than 1 person in a single swing.

    Unlike a solid weapon like a sword where you continue to apply force. (Though force is lost, and subsequent hits should inflict less damage)



  • It’d been suggested many times, I’m surprised you did not see the other threads about it. I posted a graphic representation of that concept in the other threads, but here it is again:

    http://imgur.com/HlPlTXo

    The notion of damage tied to momentum would resolve many issues, like windup damage, mouse dragging and single-swing multiple kills. It also includes an idea for feints, but would require tweaking.



  • The problem I see is if you do not increase the maximum damage then the vicious fast paced nature of the game will change as it will require more time to kill people.

    If you do increase the maximum damage that could end up creating a bigger gap between good and new players.

    Maybe there is a happy median but I think there are better solutions to just fixing the issue with the obviously problematic scenarios - e.g. insta hitting an opponent with a polearm handle for full damage.



  • @gregcau:

    The problem I see is if you do not increase the maximum damage then the vicious fast paced nature of the game will change as it will require more time to kill people.

    If you do increase the maximum damage that could end up creating a bigger gap between good and new players.

    Maybe there is a happy median but I think there are better solutions to just fixing the issue with the obviously problematic scenarios - e.g. insta hitting an opponent with a polearm handle for full damage.

    I don’t think this would lengthen a lot of battles for two reasons.
    1. A lot of kills are going to happen by stabs and overheads, which will not be affected a lot by this method since you must at least have the horizontal on target. Only draggers will have less damage with this system on these attacks.
    2. Swings will get some damage cuts, but only when not directly looking at your target. Of course I cannot speak for other people, but when I hit with a swing, my crosshair is always somewhere directly on the target. The only difference this makes is on enemies hit by accident and for people new to the game.

    Yes this does make it somewhat harder for new players, but as long as you make it a normal distribution and not linear this would not matter that much (the above graph being a nice normal distribution, relative wide peak to forgive small errors and a large damage reduction for big errors). Especially since new players start with the more powerful weapons at first this will not have a big influence. These weapons generally kill in two hits (look at the zwei, maul, G mace, bearded) regardless of the few degrees their aim is off with this system.

    Since it’s just a subtle difference in damage as long as you are not braindead swinging, I welcome the subtle skill necessity introduced by this method. Rewarding the players which can aim better and punishing LMB spammers just using the whole 180 degree arc with no need to aim.

    Edit: Just a little extra point. This system would also stop rewarding people even when they get fooled by footwork. So when a MaA dashes past you and you fail miserably, you will not get rewarded with 100% damage because he was still in your arc’s last 1 degree. When considering momentum in the proposed way; The better you react to footwork, the higher the damage becomes.



  • I agree with Title



  • I like this idea. You have my sword.



  • And you have my bow. :archb:



  • And my axe!

    It might be a little unfair (if realistic) if flails couldn’t cleave through targets, but the rest I agree with. Making strikes with all weapons deal a certain % less damage for every subsequent target struck at once would be nice.

    Having damage “sweetspots” at certain moments during the swing (i.e. during the middle of the swing) with stabs included in this, would improve gameplay quite a bit, especially when people are doing silly things like face-hugging 2H stabs that spawn the hit-tracers already inside your body (thus making its feint uncounterable, even with lightning-fast reflexes since you have to parry before the windup is finished), and the imfamous bardiche instant-planet-cracker overhead by look directly downwards the instant before the swing starts.

    It would make getting a proper meat-shot properly rewarding, i.e. striking in the middle of the stab, not just as it starts or clipping them just as it ends, or getting a max-velocity horizontal or overhead, rather than clipping their ankle as the strike ends or the wtf-I-just-decapitated-someone-standing-behind-me that can occur at the start of a swing of any weapon longer than a shortsword.
    Reduced damage at the start and end of attacks would do well to change cheesy easy-hit tactics to something you do in desperation to force a flinch, not something you do to get an easy kill.



  • Yeah, implement this and if possible include the momentum of the players as they do in Mount and Blade. For example if both players are moving away from each other and one connects with the tip, it doesn’t do much damage, if both players are moving towards each other it does a lot of damage.



  • @Dr:

    Yeah, implement this and if possible include the momentum of the players as they do in Mount and Blade. For example if both players are moving away from each other and one connects with the tip, it doesn’t do much damage, if both players are moving towards each other it does a lot of damage.

    +1 to this too. Although this mechanic sort of exists already by means of the Vanguard charge.



  • I would definitely find this a good addition to the game, balancing maximum damage versus hyper accelerating swings to flinch opponents. I already sort of do this, primarily playing as a flail knight, when I sprinkle shield strikes in with my combo to lock down opponents.

    Though I don’t think this should have any effect on knives, considering you cannot accelerate their swings given how tiny of a range they have. They need to be almost 100% on target already with their range.



  • @gregcau:

    The problem I see is if you do not increase the maximum damage then the vicious fast paced nature of the game will change as it will require more time to kill people.

    If you do increase the maximum damage that could end up creating a bigger gap between good and new players.

    I find this is something far to complex to guess at. We’ll need hard evidence to prove that removing feints or reducing damage on weapons really makes the game that much slower/less intense.



  • @CrimsonAvenger:

    @Dr:

    Yeah, implement this and if possible include the momentum of the players as they do in Mount and Blade. For example if both players are moving away from each other and one connects with the tip, it doesn’t do much damage, if both players are moving towards each other it does a lot of damage.

    +1 to this too. Although this mechanic sort of exists already by means of the Vanguard charge.

    Yeah but it’s a fairly straightforward mechanic that most experienced Vanguards don’t use anyway.

    This would increase the skill focus of the game, it would reduce (but not remove) the effect of hitting someone with some strange part of the animation as happens with “light-sabering” and being hit with the back swing.

    I would also like to see some effect of hitting with different parts of the weapon. The tip of a sword does not do as much damage as the sweet spot somewhere in the middle, hitting someone with the wooden staff of the bardiche but not connecting with the blade should very little damage. A thrust with a spear that only catches you with the tip should do a lot less damage than one that would go straight through you. Again this would lead to more skilful gameplay.



  • There are some maneuvers in martial arts where you do take a step backwards whilst delivering a blow so i don’t rate this notion that a strike landed while the player is moving away should deal less damage. The weapon is still traveling at speed and still carries its own weight. Sometimes moving away can increase the speed of the arching weapon.

    Secondly if they introduce this ‘close range hits do less damage’ mechanic people are just going to abuse it and happily trade hits.
    eg:
    I’m going to role knight and every time someone swings at me ill walk right into face hug range and take a reduced damage hit from you and then i’ll quickly step back and hit you for full damage and there will be nothing you can do about it because of lag so i will always be able to create a gap with which to exploit the mechanic.



  • @giantyak:

    There are some maneuvers in martial arts where you do take a step backwards whilst delivering a blow so i don’t rate this notion that a strike landed while the player is moving away should deal less damage. The weapon is still traveling at speed and still carries its own weight. Sometimes moving away can increase the speed of the arching weapon.

    Secondly if they introduce this ‘close range hits do less damage’ mechanic people are just going to abuse it and happily trade hits.
    eg:
    I’m going to role knight and every time someone swings at me ill walk right into face hug range and take a reduced damage hit from you and then i’ll quickly step back and hit you for full damage and there will be nothing you can do about it because of lag so i will always be able to create a gap with which to exploit the mechanic.

    Yes I agree that you can do massive damage whilst taking a step back, but not really whilst back peddling. In any case there’s always going to be a lot of things about real combat that cannot be replicated in the game.

    I don’t think ‘close range hits do less damage’ is a good mechanic but a mechanic that considers where weapons do the most damage would be good. There would be no difference in damage at close range for small weapons like maces or axes but reduced damage if you hit with the tip where the enemy is just in your range. For big weapons close damage should be less and where the weapon should do max damage would be dictated by that weapon -the business end for axes and pole-arms the middle of the blade for swords.



  • Some good points raised there, and i do actually like the idea, but i’m highly concerned that the mechanic would be too easy to exploit.

    There is a further issue also and that is that this would reduce the effectiveness of 2h weapons against 1h weapons and from what i have observed on dueling servers this would be a bad thing, 2h weapons need every advantage they can at the moment to counter face hugging and exploiting attacks - such as attacking whilst looking at the floor or at such close proximity that it hits the back of the players hit box etc.



  • don’t really care for this, hitting people with the beginning of the release is fun and cool

    why don’t you guys just figure out how to fix the lookdown overhand instead since that is the only thing you actually have a problem with?



  • @giantyak:

    There are some maneuvers in martial arts where you do take a step backwards whilst delivering a blow so i don’t rate this notion that a strike landed while the player is moving away should deal less damage. The weapon is still traveling at speed and still carries its own weight. Sometimes moving away can increase the speed of the arching weapon.

    Secondly if they introduce this ‘close range hits do less damage’ mechanic people are just going to abuse it and happily trade hits.
    eg:
    I’m going to role knight and every time someone swings at me ill walk right into face hug range and take a reduced damage hit from you and then i’ll quickly step back and hit you for full damage and there will be nothing you can do about it because of lag so i will always be able to create a gap with which to exploit the mechanic.

    The whole discussion about movement affecting the momentum is irrelevant in my opinion.
    In the game when you initiate an attack (also true for backpeddling) the character will launch forward a small bit to replicate the necessary movement. In the game you stop backpeddling for a millisecond during an attack and you continue backpeddling afterwards.
    This mechanic makes this discussion irrelevant since there is no backpeddling during the attack itself.

    I do agree with different parts of the weapon having different damage values, however for me simply having momentum calculated has more priority.



  • @osta2501:

    It’d been suggested many times, I’m surprised you did not see the other threads about it. I posted a graphic representation of that concept in the other threads, but here it is again:

    http://imgur.com/HlPlTXo

    The notion of damage tied to momentum would resolve many issues, like windup damage, mouse dragging and single-swing multiple kills. It also includes an idea for feints, but would require tweaking.

    I like the idea, though I would have it spike more quickly up and plateau before going down again to keep damage more consistent in fights. Or have it hop at integer values of 20 for a few more zones and slightly less consistency. Little changes like applying that curve to the ENTIRE weapon could drastically change combat.

    Granted we also run into the issue of not every weapon swinging the same way. 1handers peter out much earlier than 2 handers so the END of their swing would probably be dealing more damage since they tend to start at 3:00 and end at 10:30. Could be simulated by stilting the graph one way or the other, larger plateaus on one side, smaller on the other, if that makes sense.

    And, I don’t think calculating ACTUAL momentum of the weapon is necessary or even desirable for chivalry. It can be simulated well enough by changing damage values based on where the swing is in it’s arc. This solves a slew of odd things such as overheads hitting behind a person, lookdown overheads, and the extreme edge of any attack dealing full damage. I can’t count the times my head turned to jelly because someone swung at one of my allies as I was advancing behind them and the swing started at my head :<



  • @Dr:

    Yeah but it’s a fairly straightforward mechanic that most experienced Vanguards don’t use anyway.

    You know what? I learnt not to use LMB almost at all thanks to the leap attack. Even as a MAA or a knight, when running to an enemy, I’m subconsciously afraid that I will leap 2 metres uncontrollaby swinging around if I press LMB.

    I would also like to see some effect of hitting with different parts of the weapon. The tip of a sword does not do as much damage as the sweet spot somewhere in the middle,

    Now sir, that is a total BULLSHIT. The damage a weapon deals is decided mostly by one factor - kinetic energy. And as you all know, kinetic energy is half the mass but velocity squared. The weapon swings go generally along a circular trajectory and the angular speed (degrees/sec) of the different weapon parts is generally the same, the forte of the blade overcomes the angle during the same amount of time as the tip. However, the tip is much farther and it’s circular trajectory is much, much longer, therefore it is much faster and can deliver the largest amount of kinetic energy. BTW this is the reason why the axe has it’s blade at the END of the handle and not in the middle.
    Of course the matter is slightly bit more complicated with swords because while just hitting someone is certainly extremely uncomfortable (from to p.o.v. of the receiving party), it’s is generally not enough to shut the fucker down. So after the slash, a sword has to saw in order to cut through the armor, flesh and bone of the victim. So the sweet spot of the sword is about the last third or last quarter of the weapon so that there is enough kinetic energy and enough cutting power. And that’s the reason why the sword is a little bit tricky to learn with.
    What applies to swords, does not apply to all other weapons, for example sabres are curved and their curved blade allows to deliver both the inetic energy and the cutting power at the same time, so the “sweet spot” is a little bit closer to the tip.
    No need to say that for stabbing, the “sweet spot” is always the tip.

    However when the opponents are at close distance, they don’t swing like idiots, they use the pommels, crossguards, elbows, knees etc. to a great effect to. So you may argue that in CMW, the close combat damage is an abstraction for other types of close combat fighting.

    Moreover there is the balance part of the game. Right now, it is possible to parry a maul with a dagger so there is really no way stopping people from facehugging. So introducing momentum to calculate damage, you would have to rebalance significantly 2H weapons because they would be nerfed extremely… Once the opponent gets to close quarters, you would be f----d (which is not necessarily bad from the point of view of realism, it was the basic way to counter pole weapons). So the hits with 2H weapons would have to be all the stronger which would bring serious issues:

    1. BALANCE! - it would be extremely difficult to do it right
    2. 2H weapons streamlining - while there is theoretically infinite space of nerfing weapons (killing an archer with mauls could need 200 hits to the head with an overhead), there is only so much space on the other side. The maul oneshots a vanguard… zweihander oneshots an archer and maa… but there are some 17 twohanded weapons and they need to be different, not oneshot everything.

    Right now, I think it’s time to rethink a little bit the 2H weapons because as the players get more and more skilled, it becomes more and more obvious that 1H weapons are more universal and useful (due to their speed) for any situation while 2H weapons become a little bit more situational. But such a dramatic change to the damage calculation system is a good way to make the game a total mess.