A word on Javelins.



  • A thread not about parries? Unthinkable. Though I am loathe to do it, since there’s already an active thread on javelins, several people suggested I’d be better served to put this in its own thread where it would be more greatly visible. While I know that the devs ask for feedback which is concise, I’m not sure I can tackle the issue satisfactorily as such. I will summarize at the bottom of the post, but if you’re going to respond to this I would ask you read my essay in full, especially given that my selected suggestions are largely codependent.

    Now, I’m just going to come right out and say it: the Javelins, all versions, and in all respects, are completely terrible. I know there’s been plenty of discussion on them before, and people have individually been able to tease out many of its issues through discussion, but nobody has even come close to actually tackling just how tremendously and horrifically bad they actually are.

    Before I get into the details about their flaws, I do want to point out that in spite of all of its issues, I enjoy playing Javelin anyways. I find it a compelling concept, however poorly executed, and there are shades of what it could be lurking in the loadout as it stands. Javelins should be - and are probably intended to be - a high mobility frontline combat class, relatively high-risk but also carrying the potential for high rewards when played carefully and efficiently. As it stands, though, the balance really leans towards a javelineer being an extreme-risk class with mediocre-to-terrible rewards.

    Onwards, however, to the gritty details. A sensible place to start is the rather contentious buckler, more frequently maligned than praised but with its strong opinions on both sides. The benefits of a shield should be relatively obvious, of course. It empowers a player against feints, projectiles and takes away a great deal of the effort involved in defending oneself against a frenzy, but for an archer, one single kick is now a guaranteed death sentence. It doesn’t help either that the buckler, of course, effectively blinds the user, carries a very high stamina cost and seems to have tremendously spotty and inconsistent coverage. It’s also worth noting that projectile defense, which the buckler actually does quite well - extremely well if crouch-guarding - seems somewhat backwards for a loadout that should have to take a little more risk against other projectiles, rather than being even more insulated. The buckler, ultimately, constitutes a push, carrying as many advantages as it has disadvantages. Even taken with a secondary rather than the javelins themselves, it can alter the close combat dynamic for an archer, but can’t improve it.

    Close combat is unmistakably a factor for javelins, too. Given the distances at which a Javelineer must engage, this is practically inevitable. Archer, however, totally lacks in this area, carrying the weakest close-combat weapons in the game, with a huge number of hits to kill in most situations. They also have the lowest damage resistances against all types, even below Man-at-Arms, reduced backpedal speed over the man-at-arms, and a strafe speed lower than Vanguard. They even lack any kind of defensive feature like the man-at-arms’ dash, and their unique class ability to inflict backstab damage is weak and nearly useless in a head-on fight anyways. The javelins themselves are an even poorer close-combat weapon than any of the secondaries, with the stab being quite slow - comparable to a two-hander - while inflicting similar damage to an archer/MAA secondary, and the shield bash being faster, but lacking tremendously in reach and doing very low damage. To compound this problem, the bash and stab are both essentially impossible to accelerate or delay, making them extremely predictable and easy to counter unless someone expends a great deal of stamina feinting. Given feints will likely be receiving changes as well, this aspect will probably get even worse in the future.

    The obvious point following that is to say, “but wait, Javelins aren’t a close combat weapon at all, they’re primarily intended to be projectiles!” This is unquestionably correct, but unfortunately they continue to fare poorly under scrutiny in almost every conceivable way. Obviously, they have limited range and slower speed than arrows, but this is one flaw that can be set aside as moving into a closer zone is the core purposeful limitation of the concept. Less easily set aside, however, is how very limited that zone actually is. Javelins as a thrown weapon have a very specific butter zone that must be maintained to be at all effective, with the outside boundary being defined by the effective range and speed of the weapon, but with the inside edge being defined simply by the recovery time of the javelins - which is comparable to that of the bows. This very long recovery time means the inside boundary of that zone is actually still a very notable distance from the javelineer, and makes the butter zone small against a knight, smaller against a vanguard and downright comical against a man-at-arms. Compounding the issue of the zone javelineers must fight in - on or very near the front line - is shields. Anyone using projectiles must contend with them of course, but archers fighting from afar are harder to notice and have more time to get optimal angles, benefit from distractions provided by teammates, or just line up a perfect shot. When fighting from the frontline, it’s easy to become the focus of attention, and the chances of being able to get a hit at all are massively decreased, and a fatal one even moreso. This forces a javelineer to move in and engage in close combat, where again, they are unlikely to be able to win.

    A final note on the issue of javelins as a ranged weapon is their pathetic ammo count. While every javelin does enormous damage - default one shots archers in the body - the extreme low ammo count makes each one more valuable than gold and the penalty for a missed shot is tremendous. No other class is so brutally penalized for a miss, and this is one of the main factors helping to make javelins an absurd-risk loadout. It fails a test of basic logic to have a class whose primary method of combat, and their most unique capability, burn up so quick, when almost every other loadout in the game is functionally as good as when they started and only limited by their ability to keep themselves alive. Javelineers rapidly become low-rent man-at-arms once their ammo is depleted, and not even other archer loadouts have to fear this to any real degree.

    If you’re still with me and not foaming at the mouth wanting to mash “New Post” to argue with me, great! That means we can get down to brass tacks about what to do with the javelins to have a hope of fixing them. My suggestions follow below.

    First, raise the ammo count. Should no other item on this list be followed, this one is the most absolutely crucial. Javelineers deserve as much room for error as any other class, and deserve to also have sustainability. More ammo would give less capable players more chances, and more capable players room to contribute and excel alongside their men-at-arms, vanguards, knights and bowmen. The ammo count increase should also be notable, something on the order of quadrupling or even quintupling the number available for every javelin tier.

    Second, javelins should be on a new class. The loadout doesn’t pay out and never really will for an archer. They have too much risk on the frontline, and would never be able to truly succeed without more armor, better strafe and back movement speed, and more significant close range threats. If they did get a new class with better survivability and melee prowess though, thrown javelin damage should receive a reduction. Ideally we want to move away from having a binary class that would win if they hit once and lose if they miss once, which is essentially where javelins stand now.

    Third, faster throw recovery. As it stands, even though they can ready and hurl a javelin quite fast, the window in which a javelineer is near defenseless afterwards is tremendous, leaving them open to all manner of counterattack. This is a particularly huge issue given archer’s low mobility and lack of health, but the point remains that you don’t want to make it almost impossible for someone to survive if they miss or even land a non-fatal hit once. No other class can be put into quite that level of peril so regularly, and this window should be tightened to bring them closer in line with other classes in the game.

    Fourth, faster throw cancel recovery. Again, what we really want to do is increase good choices and reduce binary gameplay. As it stands, there is next to no reason to cancel a throw in a fight - if you believe you have even a remote chance of hitting your enemy you should go for the hail mary throw, because the end result of cancelling your attack is to leave yourself open just as long, without any hope of causing damage. If you’re giving up any ability to do damage, you should not be exposed to as much risk either.

    Fifth, give javelineers another off-hand option. If they desire, they should be allowed to put away their shields and fight with some form of off-hand which allows them the benefit of a parry-capable weapon, while incurring the same costs. My feeling is that this should be something like a sword breaker to convey its function visually, but reusing a dagger or shortsword for this purpose would work fine. Having additional shield options would also help, not necessarily the heater, kite or tower, but something just for those who despise the buckler and would like something different.

    Sixth, improve javelin melee for a little more flexibility. Since javelin attacks are currently impossible to accelerate or delay, I would suggest swapping the roles of the bash and stab so that the stab is the faster and lower damage hit, while the bash gets a longer swing arc and more damage. One effectively delayable attack would make javelins a more realistic melee threat, without bringing them quite up to the level of others given a lack of comboability or a slash attack.

    I’m not going to claim this is a complete magic salve for the issues the loadout has, but I think it would be a very solid start. The numbers would have to be fine-tuned, and all of these suggestions together might make a class that’s overly powerful, but it could always be stepped back if needed. The class as it is definitely doesn’t work, and is essentially the very worst loadout in the game.

    Finally, a summary, as promised:
    Issues:

    • Extreme risk due to poor armor and low mobility
    • No sustainability due to low ammo count
    • Zero room for error due to both of the above factors, also leads to very binary combat
    • Shield hurts as much as helps
    • Extremely weak in close combat, due to low damage and extreme predictability

    Fixes:

    • New class with improved armor and mobility, but lower thrown weapon damage
    • Larger ammo reserve
    • Reduced throw recovery time
    • Massively reduced throw cancel time
    • Defensive options other than or concurrent to shield
    • Less predictable and more powerful melee combat


  • Javelins are quite cool, and while I don’t quite have the same passion for them as you, it’s interesting to read up on their flaws and strengths. I rarely use them as you know.

    All I can think of when I see a Javelin is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-oSfXbt-Mw

    Because, well, that’s awesome.

    So for your fixes,

    • New class with improved armor and mobility, but lower thrown weapon damage

    The problem is weapon loadout for this new class, what would you give it? Three spears, what else? Is that all for the primaries, and what about secondaries and tertiaries?

    I think it could work but there are details and ideas for weapons and benefits to this new class that would need to be worked out, possibly with it not being a Javelin class but just a step up from archer in terms of armor. Perhaps Crossbowmen could fit in here too?

    • Larger ammo reserve

    Sounds fine, but I don’t think giving them as much ammo as standard archers is a good idea. Javelins are bulky, heavier, and should be used with more care.

    • Reduced throw recovery time

    Agreed.

    Massively reduced throw cancel time

    Nothing wrong with this either.

    • Defensive options other than or concurrent to shield

    That, or fixing the buckler so it’s not absurdly terrible.

    • Less predictable and more powerful melee combat

    Harder to do that just by changing weapon stats though. Somehow, more attack options would be nice.



  • @Dick:

    A thread not about parries? Unthinkable. Though I am loathe to do it, since there’s already an active thread on javelins, several people suggested I’d be better served to put this in its own thread where it would be more greatly visible. While I know that the devs ask for feedback which is concise, I’m not sure I can tackle the issue satisfactorily as such. I will summarize at the bottom of the post, but if you’re going to respond to this I would ask you read my essay in full, especially given that my selected suggestions are largely codependent.

    Now, I’m just going to come right out and say it: the Javelins, all versions, and in all respects, are completely terrible.….

    Ok javelins are not terrible. The pilum and the first javelin are very good, just hard to use. The throwing spear (middle one) is terrible. I’ll read the rest of your wall of text because i love javelins (i melee unless the other player gets dirty, then i throw. Its a mistake not to melee as a javelin player anyway)



  • I do think the only way to properly balance javelins is to make them their own class like in AoC.



  • @The:

    The problem is weapon loadout for this new class, what would you give it? Three spears, what else? Is that all for the primaries, and what about secondaries and tertiaries?

    I think it could work but there are details and ideas for weapons and benefits to this new class that would need to be worked out, possibly with it not being a Javelin class but just a step up from archer in terms of armor. Perhaps Crossbowmen could fit in here too?

    This isn’t something I was too interested in splitting hairs about. Other people have suggested the sling should be lumped into a new class as well, but I have mixed feelings about that - I think the roles of the sling and javelins already overlap some as closer-range weaponry, and it’d make more sense to improve the sling but keep it set aside in its strictly ranged role, rather than take on attributes of the javelins’ hybrid role. I don’t really care about the sling particularly, so I’m not that interested in addressing how to fix it here. I don’t even have any real theories on that front anyways.

    I don’t think crossbowmen would fit very well at all. If bowmen are somewhat more run and gun, then they’re the snipers of the game. If they need to be altered in any way, it would be to improve them in that role.

    I don’t think giving them as much ammo as standard archers is a good idea. Javelins are bulky, heavier, and should be used with more care.

    Logical in a real world sense, but sometimes real world rules need to be broken. Obviously it would be impossible to carry that many javelins in reality, but it translates very poorly into the game world. Balance and fun trump those arguments.



  • Ok so i didn’t read every word of your wall of text OP, its always to your betterment to be more concise.
    ‘Javelin player’ (pellatist) is actually pretty good. Here’s my view.
    The javelin player IS good. Its right where it should be, it doesn’t need any changes bar two.
    Problem 1:
    The archer class is primarily a ranged class and have the slowest sideways movement of any class and this hinders them to a degree in melee, however, the javelin player is arguably primarily melee (if they know what they’re doing and/or have not run out of javelins). It’s a problem that the javelin player is expected to melee with the slowest sideways movement and the worst armour.
    Problem 2:
    His tools are at the moment slightly flawed. The buckler, javelin, and pilum can be very effective, however, as everyone knows the buckler’s hitbox is broken and the buckler shield bash range is also abysmal and its mechanic is broken (as described in other threads). More over, the javelin weapons are very predictable…they have no combo but can stab and stab…

    I had heard (rightly or wrongly) that TB had considered making the javelin player a separate class and i propose they do so.
    The benefit:
    If the javelin player gets put in his own class:
    -TB can complete him as they intend him to be
    -DO TB INTEND for the javelin player to have the slowest sideways movement along with the archer class? I think he should be able to move sideways at least as fast as a knight as melee is an integral part of his function.
    -TB can assign different shields to the different javelins.
    -and even assign different armour eg Light armour for the throwing spear, medium armour for the pilum (which is a heavy weapon)
    My suggested break down
    throwing spear gets the buckler because:
    -throwing spear is the worst of the javelins at melee as it is a light weapon (so it suits the light shield - buckler)
    -people who use the throwing do so because they want to use the class as primarily ranged and so they only need the buckler.
    -it also has the largest amount of ammo
    Javelin(the first one) gets the same kite shield as the MAA
    That javelin is good for throwing but very solid in melee and a quick weapon so it suits that shield in its purpose.
    Pilum (3rd javelin) gets the tower shield
    -The pilum is a heavy weapon with poor thrown range.
    -The pilum comes with a limited amount of ‘ammo’
    -The romans used the pilum with the tower shield (heater shield) +immersion points for TB.



  • you don’t want to make that class super powerful. The archer is a ranged class… not a melee classs. It should not excel too much further than it already does in melee. It has a shortsword, cudgel, saber, etc. There’s no reason you should not be able to switch to that and use it effectively if backed down. If you overextend yourself, that’s your own fault. The javalin has been able to one hit kill me as a knight to the head, which i’m sure that means it can one hit kill any class with whichever javelin that is. One hits MAA to chest, one hits archers to the FOOT… i mean… we need to buff the speed, give him a dodge, and all that. Lets just make an OP class. More ammo? no… you need to conserve your ammo and make your shots count. They do a fuckton of damage when they hit properly. And i agree that it SHOULD be harder to aim and throw them because… once again… they do a fuckton of damage and can one hit kill shit… or make them VERY vulnerable. You need to know where ammo crates are and access them at the right times.

    The bucker… yeah it fucking sucks, emphasise your blocks like it was a parry, not a shield. Treat the buckler as a parry aim and not a shield aim. You can block with it… just because you can’t doesn’t make it not do-able. (and i’m not saying anyone here cannot block) Can you imagine a little archer running around with a tower shield? you wouldnt even be able to see the little bugger.

    Point is, i think adding a lot of the things you mentioned like more speed, more javs, better shield… that would make the class OP to good players. Yeah, a new player might not be able to run around owning face with a jav archer. But put someone experienced behind it that can ALREADY crush with it… and you’ve got a madman.

    Leave em alone. they already got a speed buff since last patch making them more than viable. people think the melee shield poke, to jav poke is the end of the combo, you can either go back to the shield thrust, or you can even throw the jav as part of the combo… believe me there is enough time. You are basically right in their faec… shield bash, poke jav, throw it in their damn EYE. That’s what you can do, if you miss… sorry.

    Buffing the jav archer more would be too much IMO. It’s perfectly fine right now. Don’t need to give archers more armor, nothing… they are ranged class, not an overpowered spearchucking god.



  • post can be deleted



  • Man please edit your post….and/or read my post properly. I said at the top of my post that the javelin is already good and that it doesn’t need any changes. I did not say willy nilly that the javelins needs a speed increase, i said the javelin player needs a sideways movement tweak because hes expected to melee and therefore should at least be on par with the next melee class - the knight, even though his sideways movement is the next slowest next to the archer. Thats a very minor change that will bring the javelin player inline with other classes when it comes to melee.

    On top of this i said that TB can make the javelin they way they intend him to be….which is what they already mostly done and given how good they are they don’t need any change, but as raised by other people if the javelin player gets its own class the primarys, secondarys, and tertiarys need to be sorted.

    So if they aren’t going to change the buckler then the least they can do is give the two javelins that melee more then they throw a semi decent shield than that would bring them more on par with other classes in melee fights.

    It’d be lovely if TB polished what they’ve pretty much already finished and put the javelin player / pellatist in a separate class.

    just because my post came after yours, does not mean i was responding to you. responding to OP… not thou. I also must add that i skimmed that book up there.



  • Sorry i have edited my post…
    Only thing i’d add is that its hard to hit people at range with the javelin due to the slow release and also its slow flight speed.
    It’s actually also pretty hard to hit people at close range and if you miss you die. So perhaps that is a fair trade.
    So perhaps only throwing spears should be able to be run around with whilst already wound up (as they don’t do much damage) the javelin and pilum could change so that you have to windup and release. This would give opposing melee classes a chance to react more fairly and balance things out.



  • I’m just going to come right out and say that I think Javelin setups are some of the most powerful in the game, excluding the Heavy Jav which I have not played with much.

    Not many use them effectively, but those who do can make it seem like they’re OP. The Short Spear class is insanely powerful for those that are patient and know how to aim. The throws are so fast that they can often be tossed in the middle of melee encounters. You have nearly the same throw speed as Throwing Hatchets!

    An overall excellent support unit when in clusters, Short Spear can headshot all but one class in the game. It’s upper torso hits get Archers, Vanguards and MAA’s down to one hit health, and you get one extra spear to throw. Throw them!



  • @HEXEN:

    I’m just going to come right out and say that I think Javelin setups are some of the most powerful in the game, excluding the Heavy Jav which I have not played with much.

    Not many use them effectively, but those who do can make it seem like they’re OP. The Short Spear class is insanely powerful for those that are patient and know how to aim. The throws are so fast that they can often be tossed in the middle of melee encounters. You have nearly the same throw speed as Throwing Hatchets!

    An overall excellent support unit when in clusters, Short Spear can headshot all but one class in the game. It’s upper torso hits get Archers, Vanguards and MAA’s down to one hit health, and you get one extra spear to throw. Throw them!

    are you SURE they cannot one hit knights to the head. I have been full health on many occasions… and if i take one to the dome… it’s lights out. As far as i can tell for all of these, i did not receive damage from any other source. Just headshot…dead… Possible? Didn’t video any of these occasions apparently… but i swear it’s happened to me.



  • The javelin player is powerful when used properly but not OP, good javelin players are seldom encountered. Many javelin players are only able to use the ranged side of the class and tend to just grieve people by throwing spears into their back when they are otherwise preoccupied and then as soon as they run out of ammo die because they are unable to melee with the setup.

    Javelins are actually not as fast as you think, the thing that makes it seem so is that like other thrown weapons you can run around with them already woundup ready to release. Their release is pretty slow, their flight speed is the slowest of any projectile.

    On two occasions i’ve scored knights straight through the face with the javelin and they kept running around with the javelin in their head. It was very comical even though i died in the hit trade.



  • @clayton-bigsby:

    are you SURE they cannot one hit knights to the head. I have been full health on many occasions… and if i take one to the dome… it’s lights out. As far as i can tell for all of these, i did not receive damage from any other source. Just headshot…dead… Possible? Didn’t video any of these occasions apparently… but i swear it’s happened to me.

    He is talking about the short spear, the heavy javelin can kill a knight with a headshot.

    I’ve seen a couple of pretty amazing javelineers that can win duels but they are a rarity. It certainly takes a lot more time to get good with the javelin but when you do they can be effective. But I agree the buckler is just annoying.

    I should be able to drop the shield like Achilles did and just go stab someone in the neck…

    XJ8S8_O0OYM



  • Such a great movie :D

    And I agree, Javelins are not quite so easy to pick up. You just have learn more because of how the setup is used. However, it’s powerful once you start to hone in on consistent accuracy with throws. Mastering your reload time and gauging distance will also keep you alive longer.



  • The only thing that makes me think the javs are terrible is the delay between the lmb release and the actual throw(not the animation just the projectile appearing in air)
    I liked them a lot better in beta (even if they were bugged)because it was actually easier to throw, although if you did a mistake you were dead for sure.
    now you can just spam throws to someone who’s at 2 meters away, and that’s just stupid :/



  • I am generally of the opinion that javelins are fine in concept. IMO: Fix the buckler, keep the recovery time after throws the same (although I agree with the OP that cancelling a throw should be substantially faster) and allow the archer to pick up his thrown javelins with more reliability. No need to triple or quintuple the javelineer’s ammo stores, as long as he can pick them up from the ground and fallen foes.

    The OP touched on it, but Hexen hit it on the mark: If an archer has the mechanics of the throw mastered, the javelineer is a truly powerful support class. I haaaaaate going up against a duo of enemies, one of them being a javelineer a few meters back, the problems of which are compounded by my lack of a shield. A spear vanguard fills a similar sort of support role, stabbing from a safe distance when openings appear or creating new openings for a teammate, but the vanguard gets a bit more glory than the javelin thrower.

    If I find myself in a 1v1 against either a spear vanguard or a javelin archer, I am rarely worried. On the contrary, in 2vanything, the two comprising of an enemy javelin + something or spear vannie + something, I have to put a lot of thinking into the fight. If I over- or under-think the possibilities of the fight, I usually end up with a javelin in the gut or a spear through the neck.



  • @Dick:

    Fixes:

    • New class with improved armor and mobility, but lower thrown weapon damage
    • Larger ammo reserve
    • Reduced throw recovery time
    • Massively reduced throw cancel time
    • Defensive options other than or concurrent to shield
    • Less predictable and more powerful melee combat

    Don’t like the new class idea, 4 is plenty for this game.

    Larger ammo reserve? Well, I’d rather them fix the recovery mechanic, since that is the main reason javelinmen don’t ever have enough ammo.
    Completely agree with everything else tho. Great post, hopefully the devs will see this. Really, if they just fix the buckler and the awful disappearing Javelin issue and he’ll be fine.



  • @gregcau:

    I should be able to drop the shield like Achilles did and just go stab someone in the neck…

    Well that’d be fine, but you’d be unable to parry with the javelin ;)
    I’m one of those people who get the javelin on the high end of the scoreboard in duels (without throwing at people because thats just cheap), you can never get to the top though due to the number of broken things about the javelin, buckler etc and also about the gear that other people choose



  • 1. @Dick:

    Before I get into the details about their flaws, I do want to point out that in spite of all of its issues, I enjoy playing Javelin anyways. I find it a compelling concept, however poorly executed, and there are shades of what it could be lurking in the loadout as it stands. Javelins should be - and are probably intended to be - a high mobility frontline combat class, relatively high-risk but also carrying the potential for high rewards when played carefully and efficiently. As it stands, though, the balance really leans towards a javelineer being an extreme-risk class with mediocre-to-terrible rewards.

    Agreed
    It needs better high risk rewards, like being able2 1shot every class (headshots only)
    or
    HeavyJaveline can 1shot archers, MAA, Vanguards [Knights only with a headshot] Ammo count 3
    Javeline can 1shot archers, MAA [Vanguards only with a headshot] Ammo count 5
    Shortspear can 1shot archers, [MAA only with headshot] Ammo count 8

    2. @Dick:

    Onwards, however, to the gritty details. A sensible place to start is the rather contentious buckler, more frequently maligned than praised but with its strong opinions on both sides. The benefits of a shield should be relatively obvious, of course. It empowers a player against feints, projectiles and takes away a great deal of the effort involved in defending oneself against a frenzy, but for an archer, one single kick is now a guaranteed death sentence. It doesn’t help either that the buckler, of course, effectively blinds the user, carries a very high stamina cost and seems to have tremendously spotty and inconsistent coverage. It’s also worth noting that projectile defense, which the buckler actually does quite well - extremely well if crouch-guarding - seems somewhat backwards for a loadout that should have to take a little more risk against other projectiles, rather than being even more insulated. The buckler, ultimately, constitutes a push, carrying as many advantages as it has disadvantages. Even taken with a secondary rather than the javelins themselves, it can alter the close combat dynamic for an archer, but can’t improve it.

    I agree but also disagree, mixed feelings.
    It Blinds u if ur not playing 110+FOV [but even then its only somewhat ok]. The stamina cost is a problem i agree on. There is a bug were buckler becomes invisible 2enemys that grid on u. As Inconsistents comes, I only feel this alittle. Alot of experice with the Buckler can iron out those feelings of inconsistentcy.

    3. @Dick:

    Close combat is unmistakably a factor for javelins, too. Given the distances at which a Javelineer must engage, this is practically inevitable. Archer, however, totally lacks in this area, carrying the weakest close-combat weapons in the game, with a huge number of hits to kill in most situations. They also have the lowest damage resistances against all types, even below Man-at-Arms, reduced backpedal speed over the man-at-arms, and a strafe speed lower than Vanguard. They even lack any kind of defensive feature like the man-at-arms’ dash, and their unique class ability to inflict backstab damage is weak and nearly useless in a head-on fight anyways. The javelins themselves are an even poorer close-combat weapon than any of the secondaries, with the stab being quite slow - comparable to a two-hander - while inflicting similar damage to an archer/MAA secondary, and the shield bash being faster, but lacking tremendously in reach and doing very low damage. To compound this problem, the bash and stab are both essentially impossible to accelerate or delay, making them extremely predictable and easy to counter unless someone expends a great deal of stamina feinting. Given feints will likely be receiving changes as well, this aspect will probably get even worse in the future.

    Again mixed feelings/thoughts
    The unique class ability is useless in head-fights, But my suggested tweaks[on high risk rewards] could justify this. I agree that Stabs are slow& could use a speed buff, Damge is fine . Shield bashing is getting tweaked _viewtopic.php?f=84&t=11197 ]
    In genreal Javelives melee stats are Highly Misrepresented/misleading [like alot of other weapons, shields]

    ill comment on the rest latter._


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