Accelerated and decelerated attacks



  • Let me first define something:

    -an accelerated attack is a (crouch) lookdown overhead which hits very early in its release

    -a decelerated (or delayed) attack is an attack which hits at the latest possible moment in its release. This is achieved by mouse dragging.

    So let me say first: both of these attacks look very stupid and break the immersion of medieval, epic combat. Only way to get rid of them would be no/low damage at your first and last 10% (just picking a number here) of your release. I don’t think I have to explain why a blade that does barely move and does damage to you looks stupid or why 2h weapons moving at the speed of light look ridiculous.

    On the other hand I like the possibility to accelerate an attack…is just think it is over the top. Especially crouching mid-swing should not alter your swing much (as in warping your blade).

    Ok up until here it was purely visual. But there are also gameplay issues:

    Most of you won’t know this so let me explain it first: By combining accelerated attacks, decelerated attacks and high release time weapons you can create a second feint. This accel-decel-feint is about as powerful as the “normal” feint.

    So it goes like this (I am assuming the weapon you use is a bardiche, because it works best with that weapon):

    scenario 1:
    -You windup in a lookdown-crouch position
    -Your enemy now has to guess whether you do an accel or decel, if he decides to parry now then:
    -You see his parry, delay your attack and hit him (outcome 1)
    -His parry is timed very good, you cannot delay anymore and he parries (outcome 2)
    -You decided to delay anyway and he gets hit no matter how good he parries (outcome 3)

    scenario 2:
    -You windup in a lookdown-crouch position
    -Now your enemy thinks you will delay and does not parry right away:
    -You wanted to delay, but now you see he does not parry and instead hit him right away (outcome 4)
    -You did not react fast enough and already delayed, he parries (outcome 5)
    -You wanted to do an crouch-lookdown anyway and you hit him (outcome 6)

    For those who have not already grasped the problem: This works just like feint, BUT the attacker can adjust his choice ANYTIME and thus get always a hit if he has superb reaction times (see outcome 1 and4) (or the enemy parries much too early/late).

    More problems: while you can counter a feint with an attack, you CANNOT counter accel-decel-feints with an attack. This is because when you counter a feint with an attack, your opponent gets flinched (NO FEINT DISCUSSIONS IN HERE!!). But a accel-decel feint does not leave you vulnerable at anytime. You do not get flinched if an enemy manages to get an attack in on you because you decided to delay while he was already attacking you (you fucked up pretty badly here but still get a hittrade!). Tbh it is not possible to counter hit you are doing a delay, because you can hit your opponent whenever you wish (and you should hit him when you see him windup ;)).

    Even more problems: when you do a delayed attack and your enemy (correctly) parried late, then you can (very easily) miss your attack and combo and hit the enemy before he can hit you, because you can start your combo windup right away but he has to go through the rest of his parry active time, then through his parry recovery. After that he can’t even do a hit trade anymore and is in the receiving part again.

    The problems never stop: As I have shown you can keep attacking your enemy until he gets a parry (which is very hard to get, his best chance is a last second parry of an overhead lookdown). Now combine this with normal feints and your chances of choosing the right action are ridiculously low.

    So what do I suggest to fix this? If the aforementioned suggestion to remove accel-decel altogether (10% time on release start and end no/low damage) is not taken, then lower all release times to or below 0.5s. Right now the bardiche overhead has a release time of 0.7s this is 40% (!!!) longer than parry active time (0.5s). Effective accel-decel-feints are only possible with weapons with release times greater than 0.5s. Attacks being active longer than a parry is a design flaw (imho).

    I do not want this game to turn into I-know-more-glitches / I-glitch-better, I want a Hollywood realistic looking Chivalry. No Knights looking at the sky/ground all the time, no blades that jump/stand still.

    I know many will come here and think/say: I have never seen this. This guy is talking nonsense.
    But this is what happens right now (However I have never seen anyone outside rk/io do this) and will happen elsewhere. Believe me accel-decel-feints need to be removed. Even if you are totally fine with them looking stupid as hell.

    One more reason to remove them: Shields are immune to this. But you cannot employ this tactic with shields either (no high release 1h), so it is not a balance issue. Once more I think that shields are misplaced/bad designed in this game, because why do you have a defensive method that requires no timing, when this whole game is designed about defense being based on timing?(Don’t discuss that here, it is just food for thought)



  • You don’t have to move your mouse to hit someone with the begining of the release

    And your definition of accelerated attack is flawed
    An accelerated attack is simply moving the mouse along with the weapons movements

    Also, your change would make this game hella boring
    "Look straight at your enemy constantly if you want to do any damage"
    Cripes

    You’re pretty much asking to remove all high skill play
    You understand that right?



  • @BB:

    You don’t have to move your mouse to hit someone with the begining of the release

    …ehhh what?

    @BB:

    And your definition of accelerated attack is flawed
    An accelerated attack is simply moving the mouse along with the weapons movements

    I defined it as that so everyone knows what I am talking about. I could have called it guinea pig attack if I wanted to.

    @BB:

    Also, your change would make this game hella boring
    "Look straight at your enemy constantly if you want to do any damage"

    You have to choose look at the enemy or look at the ground/sky. I would like to choose look at my enemy so I know what he is doing. You like looking at the ground/sky? You are the first person I ever met who thinks that way.

    @BB:

    You’re pretty much asking to remove all high skill play
    You understand that right?

    That’s not true. While I want to remove something which is not that easy to use it is still a glitch imo. Nobody can tell me with a straight face that bardiche accel-decel-feints are working as intended. It is already quite easy to get around one’s parry. No need to make it even THAT much easier. Just because someone found a method to circumvent the game’s mechanics does not mean that this is intended. Skilled should not mean who can circumvent the game’s mechanic the best (aka glitch).



  • 1. Have someone stand to your right, then use the slash attack, congrats you just hit him with the begining of your release without moving your mouse
    Stabbing someone while hugging them also does this

    2. You defined the Lookdown Overhand
    Which already has a name
    Lookdown Overhand

    3. You can accelerate and deccelerate the slash attacks too
    And yes, looking away from your enemy to hit them is cooler, and requires more skill

    4. No that’s exactly what you’re doing



  • @BB:

    1. Have someone stand to your right, then use the slash attack, congrats you just hit him with the begining of your release without moving your mouse
    Stabbing someone while hugging them also does this

    Captain Obvious to the rescue.

    @BB:

    3. You can accelerate and deccelerate the slash attacks too
    And yes, looking away from your enemy to hit them is cooler, and requires more skill

    …while you can decelerate a swing(you didn’t notice how I didn’t specify the attack for delays?) just as you can an overhead, you cannot accelerate a swing as efficiently as an overhead. To accelerate a overhead to a 0 release hit you do a crouch lookdown. To accelerate a swing to a 0 release hit you have to turn 180° (much harder to aim and you loose too much range). So for maximum efficiency you have to use overheads.

    @BB:

    4. No that’s exactly what you’re doing

    …I presented you with arguments and all you say is “No” again ?..no more discussion here…



  • 1. Stop asking obvious questions if you don’t want the obvious answer

    2. Lookdown Overhand takes no skill to use, everyone knows this, figure out a way to make it skill based and your thread can get off the ground

    3. You start jumping up and down
    I tell you you’re jumping up and down
    You telling me you aren’t actually jumping up and doesn’t change the fact that you are still doing it

    Everything you mentioned is used in high skill play
    You asked to remove it

    So I say again, you want to remove high skill play



  • @BB:

    You don’t have to move your mouse to hit someone with the begining of the release

    And your definition of accelerated attack is flawed
    An accelerated attack is simply moving the mouse along with the weapons movements

    Also, your change would make this game hella boring
    "Look straight at your enemy constantly if you want to do any damage"
    Cripes

    You’re pretty much asking to remove all high skill play
    You understand that right?

    Do you have to troll everything….even though its friendly gosh…
    I agree that removing accelerated and decelerated attacks would drastically lower the skill ceiling of the game and make it pretty stale.
    I think that starting windup and release inside an enemy player needs to be looked at though.
    My experience on dueling servers over the last 5 days has been that the percentage of players using dirty tactics and dirty weapons has increased very significantly. Even MAA’s were saying they’re gonna start rolling knights last night.

    Lookdown overhead doesn’t really take much skill, but there is a cost and thats that you are looking at the floor. Perhaps a good change would be that if you look down overhead your time to next swing is increased ever so slightly. Realistically you can take another swing while looking at the floor because you will fall over…actually that would be a mechanic that would fix the problem



  • Accelerating using a mouse drag is completely fair.

    Running forward looking at the ground to do a fast overhead is a little silly.

    I could understand if you have to drag your mouse from the top of the screen to the bottom - then it would be reasonable.



  • @giantyak:

    Do you have to troll everything….even though its friendly gosh…

    being blunt and insulting people isn’t trolling
    it’s being blunt and insulting

    @giantyak:

    I think that starting windup and release inside an enemy player needs to be looked at though.

    it really doesn’t, Devs said that there’s a check in place that if the weapon hits the parry or block the same moment it hits the person(eg. if you place the start of the release inside someone) then the attack will be parried

    @giantyak:

    My experience on dueling servers over the last 5 days has been that the percentage of players using dirty tactics and dirty weapons

    no such thing as a dirty tactic
    and the only weapon I would say is overpowered right now would be the Dane Axe

    @giantyak:

    Even MAA’s were saying they’re gonna start rolling knights last night.

    those MAA’s suck

    @giantyak:

    Lookdown overhead doesn’t really take much skill, but there is a cost and thats that you are looking at the floor.

    you’re right on the first part, I keep saying it’s the least skill based “high skill” maneuver
    and looking down isn’t a downside for experienced players that know the weapon times and how the work



  • @BB:

    @giantyak:

    Do you have to troll everything….even though its friendly gosh…

    being blunt and insulting people isn’t trolling
    it’s being blunt and insulting

    Correct but patronising people at the end of your post is…even though that kind of trolling is really just friendly.

    To add the dueling last night was pretty dirty. The one of the two players at the top of the scoreboard was just repeating the same move every time and there’s nothing anyone could do to stop it, hence, why the MAA were saying they’d reroll knight. The problem for the MAA’s was that no matter what they did or whether they landed hits the knight could soakup the hits and steamroll the MAA (or anyone else for that matter).

    This was more advanced then 4days ago where the knight (different player) was just looking at the floor and running into people whilst comboing at their toes…



  • I don’t feel that these attacks are the problem. Only on some weapons are they extreme (counter attack overhead on the bearded axe is virtually instantaneous). Beyond some weapons being slightly too fast, animations need to be polished up, especially for the Bardiche, bit on the Messer. As long as animations properly display what is happening, it’s totally fine.

    Right now, some weapons have incomplete animations when accelerated or decelerrated, and // or they are out of sync with their damage hitboxes. That’s a serious issue.



  • I find I can attack mega-fucking-fast with the bearded axe when I use mouse-dragging. I don’t really use the look-down overhead attack very much and I never crouch with any weapons. I think certain weapons can be incredibly effective and satisfying to use when the player is good with controlling his swings, and I wouldn’t want it changed very much, if at all. If you do a look-down overhead and hit the floor, you should be stunned for a tiny bit so your opponent can get his bearings and possibly launch a counter-swing. This is all that really needs to be done to fix the issue.



  • That’s because the Bearded Axe has a faster windup than a lot of one handed weapons do

    it has a standard release time for two handers so the speed it’s thrown out isn’t apparent until you give it to an experienced player that can hit people at the beginning of the swing

    I’m pretty sure the Beard is OP
    just checked too, Bearded Axe is slower than 3 of the primary two handers
    Norse, Sprinkler, and Hatchet are the only one handers that are faster than the Beard



  • 1. I am a firm believer that it does help with gameplay a tad bit

    2. There are a few issues revolving around weapons going through blocks that have been acknowledged by the dev’s that they are not intended.

    3. realism should not always correlate into gameplay, simulators are out there to give the closest experience of this.

    4. Why the hell are so many things being numbered off

    5. Adding this one as a filler so that I can show that I’m more organised than you and thus show that I am that much more mature

    6. DIdn’t number 5 just quell its own arguement?

    7. Probably should’ve stopped doing this awhile ago but the sugar and caffeine are insisting I continue.

    @BB:

    “giantyak wrote:
    Lookdown overhead doesn’t really take much skill, but there is a cost and thats that you are looking at the floor.”

    you’re right on the first part, I keep saying it’s the least skill based “high skill” maneuver
    and looking down isn’t a downside for experienced players that know the weapon times and how the work

    8. Saying that an experienced player (IE: Skilled) knowing the weapons timings and how weapons work is a contradiction in its own statement. Skill is not only performing the action, but knowing when and how. Especially if it involves in being able to cover where you left off.



  • @childofthekorn:

    8. Saying that an experienced player (IE: Skilled) knowing the weapons timings and how weapons work is a contradiction in its own statement.

    not really

    lookdown overhand doesn’t take skill to use

    skilled players don’t risk anything by using the lookdown overhand

    both of these statements are true



  • @BB:

    @childofthekorn:

    8. Saying that an experienced player (IE: Skilled) knowing the weapons timings and how weapons work is a contradiction in its own statement.

    not really

    lookdown overhand doesn’t take skill to use

    skilled players don’t risk anything by using the lookdown overhand

    both of these statements are true

    Nor does any other swing, or block at that.

    But when you put all these little pieces together, you need to actually learn how to make them flow properly and actively allow you to overcome an offensive or defensive opponent. So no, looking down while swinging does not take skill. However, recovering from the downward look to objectively block or attack another individual is where the skill comes into place.

    If your complaining because someone was able to look down and kill you, and not suggesting that he went 40-0 afterwards, that’s all fine and dandy. However if he was able to kill you, using that method, and then was killed shortly afterward by another individual…sounds balanced to me.

    Playing devils advocate. I’d agree it doesn’t take skill. However, nor would any of the game play. Or any other game past, present or future that doesn’t actually use the bodies movements and ‘real world’ physics. Its a video game, not real life.

    Its available for all to use and has not been deemed an exploit or bug.



  • @childofthekorn:

    Nor does any other swing, or block at that.

    except that’s wrong
    blocking hits takes skill, and putting the beginning of the release inside of somebody takes skill

    I keep saying there is nothing inherently wrong with bypassing the release period of a weapon
    bypassing the release with slashes takes a lot of skill and precision
    there is a problem however when bypassing the release of a weapon is as easy as looking down



  • @BB:

    @childofthekorn:

    Nor does any other swing, or block at that.

    except that’s wrong
    blocking hits takes skill, and putting the beginning of the release inside of somebody takes skill

    I keep saying there is nothing inherently wrong with bypassing the release period of a weapon
    bypassing the release with slashes takes a lot of skill and precision
    there is a problem however when bypassing the release of a weapon is as easy as looking down

    So looking to the left, to the right and just moving forward while pierce takes skill. But looking down does not?

    Blocking > Mouse drag apparently.

    makes sense. #Swag#Yolo.



  • @childofthekorn:

    So looking to the left, to the right and just moving forward while pierce takes skill. But looking down does not?

    yes
    it’s almost impossible to get the very beginning of the slash inside of someone, you might look too far left or not enough, either way it does not happen very often
    it takes a crap load of precision to do this

    no precision necessary when all you need to do is look straight down

    also, getting closer for a stab to land faster is much riskier than staying at your weapon’s preferred length and lookdown overhanding



  • @BB:

    @childofthekorn:

    So looking to the left, to the right and just moving forward while pierce takes skill. But looking down does not?

    yes
    it’s almost impossible to get the very beginning of the slash inside of someone, you might look too far left or not enough, either way it does not happen very often
    it takes a crap load of precision to do this

    no precision necessary when all you need to do is look straight down

    also, getting closer for a stab to land faster is much riskier than staying at your weapon’s preferred length and lookdown overhanding

    So even though the only difference between the mouse dragged attacks is the direction. When your attempting to mouse drag “Chop” (as I call it) and your attempting to hit multiple opponents. As well as defending against other players.

    I do not follow as part of “skill” as I understand it is knowing how to use the weapon (length, speed, recovery, parry, combo). To suggest that one form of mouse drag is skill while the others are just bad, IMHO, is a fallacy.