Cudgel balance thread



  • This thread is all about dat cudgel, the archer’s go to secondary weapon. I play archer exclusively, and what I have noticed with the archer secondaries is that the cudgel far outshines the rest. If I play with another secondary, I feel like I’m shortchanging myself significantly. I personally would rather use the short sword or saber in terms of style (although watching everyone’s head explode is pretty funny), but they just feel weak in comparison.

    I think slight attack time increase could help solve the problem, while maintaining the cudgel as a more beefy damaging secondary. Alternatively, the damage could be tweaked downwards a slight bit. This would force the archer to get one or two headshots to 3 shot MAA and vanguards with it, making it slightly less effective against them, while still maintaining its place as a knight beating stick.

    What do you guys think about this, and what do you think should be done about it?



  • Dont mess with my cudgel, its the only reason I like the javelineer. They already get killed by half the weapons in one shot.

    If you want to do anything buff one of their other secondaries.



  • The shortsword is also really good.



  • Shortsword all the way



  • +1 for Shortsword. Best archer secondary.



  • It would probably be best to play it safe and nerf both of them.



  • Its clear that Saber beats both shortsword and cudgel, everyone uses it!

    Saber <3



  • Shortsword = Best, most effective weapon that provides good utility no matter which attack you do

    Saber = Second best, first in style though. That thing looks damn cool and the swag you emit while wearing one at your hip can’t be matched.

    Cudgel = Super fast donk baton that doesn’t really require that much skill to be effective with.



  • @DokB:

    Shortsword = Best, most effective weapon that provides good utility no matter which attack you do

    Saber = Second best, first in style though. That thing looks damn cool and the swag you emit while wearing one at your hip can’t be matched.

    Cudgel = Super fast donk baton that doesn’t really require that much skill to be effective with.

    The cudgel doesn’t seem to have much skill involved because the knights and vanguards you go up against are stupid.

    They attack first and you flinch them. Then they always seem to party in the intervals of your overhead swings.

    Its so easy to use as you panic people. Though when you go up against someone who isn’t stupid well it gets a bit harder and you usually end up worse off.

    And it would be the cudgel that’s good against everything, as it deals blunt damage which deals similar amount of da age to all classes. 3 overheads to kill an archer and 4 for a knight. Less if you do headshots



  • another saberer here <3

    idk why but i suck with shortsword, and i miss more often with the cudgel. Saber just gives me that range and super cool points. I guess when you suck with secondaries, the saber is the one you need haha.



  • The cudgel is great, but I find myself going up against archers too much. Saber is pretty cool and fun to play with. The shortsword in my opinion is the best/most fun to play with. It’s stab is amazing with great speed and pretty good reach. However, I think the cudgel is slightly better than the rest. If we need a nerf, I think it should get slower combo times. :D



  • it needs its damage decreased. the fuckin stick should not be able to 3 hit kill knight with overheads or slashes to the head. I find it ridiculous how it can kill a knight in the same amount of hits as a morning star and its much faster than the morning star and is only has 4 less reach which is almost unnoticable and wont matter when it comes to effectiveness of the weapon. you could easily just backstep out of the reach of the morning star then move in 2 inches an smack them in the face. Honestly I think it needs the overhead damage reduced to 40 and its slash damage reduced to 35. So it will still be the knight killing champ but also not ridiculous.

    +KoC+ Tau
    level 30 knight



  • @Jstorm:

    it needs its damage decreased. the fuckin stick should not be able to 3 hit kill knight with overheads or slashes to the head. I find it ridiculous how it can kill a knight in the same amount of hits as a morning star and its much faster than the morning star and is only has 4 less reach which is almost unnoticable and wont matter when it comes to effectiveness of the weapon. you could easily just backstep out of the reach of the morning star then move in 2 inches an smack them in the face. Honestly I think it needs the overhead damage reduced to 40 and its slash damage reduced to 35. So it will still be the knight killing champ but also not ridiculous.

    +KoC+ Tau
    level 30 knight

    I’d clean this up, but I’m too lazy. Regardless, he hits the nail on the head. The cudgel outclasses a lot of weapons, and it shouldn’t.



  • I do find the cudgel extremely hard to block at times but hopefully that will be mitigated with the next patch and the parry fix.



  • The cudgel’s ability to 2 shot a knight is a bit much in my opinion(2 overheads to the back of the head.)



  • @ChuckingIt:

    The cudgel’s ability to 2 shot a knight is a bit much in my opinion(2 overheads to the back of the head.)

    exactly why I think it should have its overhead damage reduced to 40 and its slash reduced to 35 so that it is still the knight killing champ. It will still 4-hit kill knights with overheas to the head and it will 3-hit kill knights with overheads to the back of the head. That will make it balanced, don’t you think?

    +KoC+ Tau
    “Chuckdatass” nice name btw xD



  • Cudgel’s clearly OP.



  • The cudgel is stupidly damaging.



  • I almost always use the cudgel, it’s just so good.
    Blunt damage so it’s good against vanguards and knights, fast attack speed, and for some reason it’s really hard to block. A lot of the time I will just overhead my opponent and hit them first, then deliver combo overhead again and again till they die.



  • Let’s throw out some comparisons:

    Cudgel:
    slash, .4s windup, .525s combo, .4s release, 45 blunt
    overhead, .4s windup, .55 combo, .4s release, 50 blunt
    thrust, .4s windup, .575 combo, .3s release, 20 blunt

    Shortsword:
    slash, .4s windup, .525s combo, .35s release, 40 swing
    overhead, .4s windup, .525 combo, .35s release, 45 swing
    thrust, .4s windup, .525 combo, .3s release, 50 pierce

    Saber:
    slash, .4s windup, .6s combo, .4s release, 40 swing
    overhead, .45s windup, .6 combo, .4s release, 45 swing
    thrust, .4s windup, .55 combo, .4s release, 40 pierce

    Broadsword:
    slash, .45s windup, .6 combo, .35s release, 60 swing
    overhead, .4s windup, .65 combo, .35s release, 70 swing
    thrust, .45s windup, .65 combo, .3s release, 55 pierce

    Dane Axe:
    slash, .45s windup, .625 combo, .5s release, 60 swingblunt
    overhead, .4s windup, .625 combo, .5s release, 75 swingblunt
    thrust, .35s windup, .625 combo, .35s release, 25 blunt

    1. Let’s get reach out of the way, since it’s the one thing the spreadsheet won’t tell us - I just hopped on and tested striking a wall. The difference in overhead reach between dane axe and cudgel is basically nothing.

    2. You’ll notice the cudgel has shortsword timings, which make it faster (most noticeably in its combos, but also in windup and release) than saber, broadsword, and dane. Hahaha, what? Dane I understand.

    3. For our five sample weapons, here are the minimum HTK’s against each class, with the number of headshots required to pull it off in parentheses (ignoring backstabs).

    Vs Archer
    Cudgel        2 (2 headshots)
    Shortsword    2 (1 headshots)
    Saber         2 (1 headshots)
    Broadsword    2 (0 headshots)
    Dane Axe      2 (0 headshots)
    
    Vs MaA
    Cudgel        3 (0 headshots)
    Shortsword    2 (2 headshots)
    Saber         3 (0 headshots)
    Broadsword    2 (0 headshots)
    Dane Axe      2 (0 headshots)
    
    Vs Vanguard
    Cudgel        3 (0 headshots)
    Shortsword    2 (2 headshots)
    Saber         3 (1 headshots)
    Broadsword    2 (2 headshots)
    Dane Axe      2 (1 headshots)
    
    Vs Knight
    Cudgel        3 (2 headshots)
    Shortsword    4 (0 headshots)
    Saber         4 (4 headshots)
    Broadsword    3 (3 headshots)
    Dane Axe      3 (0 headshots)
    

    The cudgel is a weapon with dane axe reach, shortsword speed, and at least 3 HTK against every class in the game. It makes you wonder why the saber even exists (the only advantage is slightly better reach and one less headshot on archers for optimum HTK). Even the shortsword’s only advantages are miniscule speed boosts, the ability to kill archers with one less headshot, and the double headshot stab on vanguards. The broadsword and the dane axe have better HTK against soft targets (dane axe has better on knights too), but they actually give up speed to do that - the cudgel’s combo times are amazing.

    So, uhh… Yeah. The cudgel really does make a lot of the other archer choices junk. And it is honestly quite a bit too powerful for archer secondaries in general. The options are to reduce its damage (which I think would make it obsolete against everything) or to reduce its speed. I would not be adverse to bumping its speeds closer to morningstar (i.e., making it one of the slowest 1hers in the game).

    Yes, I think the options archers have available to them for melee should be significantly subpar. Archers are very powerful, and the fact that with cudgel they can go toe to toe in melee with basically anyone in the game to boot at little to no disadvantage is pretty crazy. Nevermind the arrow you probably have in your chest/foot from approach.


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