Knights vs Vanguard - Swords edition.



  • Hi everyone,

    I’ve played chiv for about 500 hours, rank 35 and I have a good understanding of the combat system and all classes. I mainly play vanguard and there are a few things I have noticed between the vanguard and the knights and swords in particular. I will try to talk about this without refering to the issues that slower weapons are facing with flinch times and the bug where the guy who hits 2nd in a trade blow gets to combo.

    First off, lets talk about the benefits of each class as a whole:

    The vanguard has the bonus of being able to perform a charge attack, this allows you to initiate a very slow obvious attack that will stun and can’t be cancelled.

    Without describing it any further I’m sure many people can agree it’s shit and pointless.

    BY THE WAY THE ZWEIHANDER POWER ATTACK IS THE SAME DAMAGE AS ITS SLASH (90) WHILE THE GREAT SWORD HAS A POWER ATTACK OF 100 – FIX THIS

    Aside from that, the vanguard has health like the man at arms, it can suffer 2 hits from main weapons just like the man at arms yet it is a bit slower than the man at arms and doesn’t share the ability to dodge.

    Second of all we have the knight: the knight is special in the fact they gave it a straight up buff rather than a special and that’s special right? What this means is the knight didn’t get a special ability that’s worthless but the downside is because it doesn’t have one it has such high HP that you can’t say TAKE IT AWAY IT’S TOO HIGH as it’s their special. Because of this straight off the batt the knight is obviously a very melee superior class to the vanguard with simply its base stats. It’s a bit slower than the vanguard but not enough to care about or care about any class for that matter because Chivalry has a chase mechanic to avoid those 360tosspots you may have met in AoC.

    Now in terms of weapons the vanguards strong point is that it gets long weapons that are powerful although slowish and the knights is that he gets shorter, a little bit weaker and usually quite fast weapons.

    I don’t really think anyone in chivalry really looks at weapons for their actual damage values and I believe a more effective system is that HOWMANY HITS DOES IT TAKE TILL GUY DIE? But lets discuss both anyway.

    Before I talk about the damage between the two groups of swords I want to discuss the speed difference between the slowest of the trio and the fastest.

    Knight swords are too alike every one of them resembles a turd in the punch bowl
    Unless fighting other knights.

    The claymore has a slash windup of 0.5 and a release of 0.55. The zweihander has a windup of 0.65 and a release of 0.6. That seems like a fair difference considering one is at 75dmg and the other at 90. Now the sword of war slash compared to the messer has a windup of 0.55 and a release of 0.6 while the sword of war has a windup of 0.5 and 0.6. The messer does 85 damage on a slash (5 less than a zweihander) and the sword of war does 65 dmg. Why are these so similar? When you take the more powerful sword it is supposed to be slower.

    If we compare the weapons in terms of stats the knights are stronger in speed only while the vanguard weapons are stronger in damage and range. Now at first glance you would then assume the vanguard weapons are more powerful but I’m going to tell you why they’re not.

    Chivalry has no valid/viable disengage mechanic

    The benefit of speed is useful when you are actually in range of your opponent so a knight player would have to get past the vanguards superior range to begin with which is relatively easy to do as the swords are only about 15% longer than the knight swords. The vanguard could then try to continue to out range the knight but because of the fact kicks are so clunky, backpedalling speed is slower than forward speed and the fact that in chivalry you speed up with an enemy in sight it is nearly impossible to disengage combat with someone unless they want you to.

    With the knights HP, VG swords are outclassed in speed, damage and range does not even matter

    So that’s the range advantage out of the window. So what we have left is the speed and the damage of the weapons. The knight weapons will out speed the vanguards the the vanguards are more powerful except because of the knights special and the vanguard being so frail the knight will take 3 hits to die and be faster than the vanguard while the vanguard is slower and takes 2 hits to die. With the vanguards STRONGEST SLOWEST weapon, the zweihander it can still take 3 hits to kill a knight unless you only overhead or only hit in the head. With the knights WEAKEST FASTEST weapon, the sword of war it takes 2 hits to kill a vanguard. I think one of the most common things with a knight is that you will hit trade fighting agains them and that serves no benefit in this situation. Bit of an outclass no?

    So the solution to this would seem like the vanguard should either be able to two hit the knight more often or be able to keep at a safe range to play to it’s advantage. Under the current game state you can’t keep someone at range, especially not with a weapon that is only 15% longer than theirs and nearly twice as slow. Kicks are awkward, clunky and stamina draining and you cannot flee with simple movement.

    The other option which almost seems like it’s a bug is that why not buff the stab attack of vanguard swords? Did you know that the sword of war with a 0.35 windup stab does 75 damage while the zweihander with a 0.7 windup does 70? A knight is in armour and a stab is pierce damage type unlike the slashes and overheads which is swings. Wouldn’t it make sense to lower the resistance of pierce on a knight so these stabs do more damage to them?

    All 3 vanguard swords do 70damage on a stab at this moment of time, why? There’s no good reason, it’s not like stab attacks are OP when you a spear as slow as the zweihander doing 90 damage with 30% more range than it. I’m aware that the zweihander was buffed recently to try and cater to the fact it 3hit knights but all that was done was a redundant buff on the overhead. This means you use 2 overheads or get an overhead on the head… and then any other attack on the head… Why would you make it that way? Most of the game is run by STAB OVERHEAD combo now and you can’t even do that with the slowest most damaging sword in the game and kill a knight.

    I thought the whole premiss of the vanguard was to be a lethal but fragile class but at the moment it’s mediocre and fragile partly to blame with the knights special being so good and the vanguards special offering no benefit to make up for it.

    Thoughts?



  • If you do not see an advantage in range, you have misunderstood this game.

    Also, your comparisons are shit. Each weapon has its uses. The Zweihander is not good for stabbing, same as SoW is not good for swinging, but they excel in other areas.

    :)

    -VK- KONGEN



  • @KONGEN:

    If you do not see an advantage in range, you have misunderstood this game.

    Also, your comparisons are shit. Each weapon has its uses. The Zweihander is not good for stabbing, same as SoW is not good for swinging, but they excel in other areas.

    :)

    -VK- KONGEN

    Thank you for your long wise educational post Kongen, you clearly put a lot of thought into a slightly berating and idiotic comment.

    For the sake of responding to you yes I would agree with you range mattered if I was playing one of the more prominent vanguard weapons, like the spear, halberd or whatever but I’m not. I play the zweihander avidly and I find this IMPORTANT RANGE just allows me to attack first, and if I do I get blocked and then they are in range or if I feign knight swords are quick enough to trade blows with me which will mean I will ultimately lose the 2hitvs3hit argument. There is no room to keep out of range after that first hit fighting a 2h knight user.

    Unless you are seriously suggesting I rely on feint spamming and luck in always getting that first hit.

    It is also worth noting that the ‘slashing area where the SoW doesn’t excel at’ does 49 damage to the head of the vanguard and 39 to the chest. Sound’s like it really doesn’t excel in that situation.



  • Wait until rank 36, all will be explained



  • Beyond the irrelevant comparison between vanguard and knight as the game is not balanced around duels, I’d like to underline one point :

    @KILLBANDS:

    I’ve played chiv for about 500 hours, rank 35 and I have a good understanding of the combat system and all classes

    No you don’t.



  • @Asmon:

    Beyond the irrelevant comparison between vanguard and knight as the game is not balanced around duels, I’d like to underline one point :

    @KILLBANDS:

    I’ve played chiv for about 500 hours, rank 35 and I have a good understanding of the combat system and all classes

    No you don’t.

    When the game includes a duel mode and there is a large interest in it (I don’t like it personally) do you not think it should be taken into consideration to some extent? I don’t know why you don’t think the game could be balanced in that manner as if there is any good excuse as to why it shouldn’t be. I’m not suggesting we give archers knight HP and warhammers because they already have their clear advantages. With the shittest special in the game and other factors there is no advantage to VG with a sword in that duel situation with a knight. Are you telling me I should just deal with a simple fact that VG aren’t supposed to duel?

    Oh and thank you for saying I don’t know anything about the game.



  • I believe you forgot to read my post. EACH WEAPON HAS ITS USES. The Zweihander is a useless piece of s*** in a 1vs1, but comes in handy when facing crowds of people.

    @KILLBANDS:

    yes I would agree with you range mattered if I was playing one of the more prominent vanguard weapons, like the spear, halberd or whatever but I’m not. I play the zweihander avidly and I find this IMPORTANT RANGE just allows me to attack first, and if I do I get blocked and then they are in range or if I feign knight swords are quick enough to trade blows with me which will mean I will ultimately lose the 2hitvs3hit argument. There is no room to keep out of range after that first hit fighting a 2h knight user.

    Unless you are seriously suggesting I rely on feint spamming and luck in always getting that first hit.

    500 hours you say? What did you do with your time? :-)



  • @KONGEN:

    I believe you forgot to read my post. EACH WEAPON HAS ITS USES. The Zweihander is a useless piece of s*** in a 1vs1, but comes in handy when facing crowds of people.

    @KILLBANDS:

    yes I would agree with you range mattered if I was playing one of the more prominent vanguard weapons, like the spear, halberd or whatever but I’m not. I play the zweihander avidly and I find this IMPORTANT RANGE just allows me to attack first, and if I do I get blocked and then they are in range or if I feign knight swords are quick enough to trade blows with me which will mean I will ultimately lose the 2hitvs3hit argument. There is no room to keep out of range after that first hit fighting a 2h knight user.

    Unless you are seriously suggesting I rely on feint spamming and luck in always getting that first hit.

    500 hours you say? What did you do with your time? :-)

    It was actually 350, I got aoc and chiv mixed up. Just disregarding a weapon and saying it has other uses in playing ffa slashing into crowds who aren’t paying attention doesn’t justify the imbalance let alone I was talking about the entire trio of weapons for VG vs the 3 of knight. the warhammer is not a good crowd weapon but does that stop it from wrecking multiple opponents? As I’ve repeated, for a game that has duel features and quite an emphasis on it within the community why should attitudes like you’re not allowed to use that weapon it’s not a 1v1 weapon be allowed?



  • @KILLBANDS:

    It was actually 350, I got aoc and chiv mixed up. Just disregarding a weapon and saying it has other uses in playing ffa slashing into crowds who aren’t paying attention doesn’t justify the imbalance let alone I was talking about the entire trio of weapons for VG vs the 3 of knight. the warhammer is not a good crowd weapon but does that stop it from wrecking multiple opponents? As I’ve repeated, for a game that has duel features and quite an emphasis on it within the community why should attitudes like you’re not allowed to use that weapon it’s not a 1v1 weapon be allowed?

    Its your play style that is ruining your dueling ability as a Vanguard vs knights. You are probably trying to fight like a Knight vs a knight. Thought it may seem cheesy, you need to keep moving constantly as a vanguard and often turn your back to your opponent to keep distance and strike with your larger weapon. You should watch Vanguards like Deadbolt of Tobiwan play. They know how to take advantage of the vanguard’s strengths.



  • The first two 2h sword from vanguard are useless.
    Instead go for knight and you get a lot more.
    Only the zweihander is the good 2h sword from vanguard. Has the ability to 2 hit knight and 1h maa



  • @janii:

    The first two 2h sword from vanguard are useless.
    Instead go for knight and you get a lot more.
    Only the zweihander is the good 2h sword from vanguard. Has the ability to 2 hit knight and 1h maa

    Checkout my boy deadbolt right here wielding that claymore like a boss. VG is viable, if played correctly and to their strengths.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdZfw07kBPA&feature=player_detailpage#t=1951s



  • Play aggressively and no vanguard can dance around you. It’s sad how much aggressive play is the only thing rewarded in Chivalry.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    Play aggressively and no vanguard can dance around you. It’s sad how much aggressive play is the only thing rewarded in Chivalry.

    I would say play my boy deadbolt, but he feints so you would probably invalidate his skill for using it. But trust me, I play him aggressively, and he still gets me on a fair basis. The reach and speed of knights make it possible for VG’s to dance.



  • I’ve played all you guys many times on multiple servers :) I beat deadbolt and sometimes he beats me. There’s nothing special about the way he plays really. The weakness of the vanguard still shines through.

    When you play vanguard all you are doing is trading off a substantial health and stamina bonus (and shields) that you would otherwise get as a knight and replace it with a little bit of range. Now that range can be quite helpful in certain circumstances in team battles but I’d say it’s more or less useless in duels.



  • @Dr.Nick:

    I’ve played all you guys many times on multiple servers :) I beat deadbolt and sometimes he beats me. There’s nothing special about the way he plays really. The weakness of the vanguard still shines through.

    When you play vanguard all you are doing is trading off a substantial health and stamina bonus (and shields) that you would otherwise get as a knight and replace it with a little bit of range. Now that range can be quite helpful in certain circumstances in team battles but I’d say it’s more or less useless in duels.

    Thank you Dr Nick. I was beginning to think I was going insane.

    @ChuckingIt:

    I would say play my boy deadbolt, but he feints so you would probably invalidate his skill for using it. But trust me, I play him aggressively, and he still gets me on a fair basis. The reach and speed of knights make it possible for VG’s to dance.

    Wasn’t the whole premiss of Chivalry to get away from the silly dancing wars?
    I’ve seen many dancing players and what they usually end up doing is making themselves look daft as their opponent doesn’t play coy and walks towards them whilst regenning stam and health.



  • @KILLBANDS:

    Wasn’t the whole premiss of Chivalry to get away from the silly dancing wars?
    I’ve seen many dancing players and what they usually end up doing is making themselves look daft as their opponent doesn’t play coy and walks towards them whilst regenning stam and health.

    As silly as a MAA teleporting backwards? Or as as silly as a knight in full armor jumping up and stabbing down into an opponents head? As silly as a dagger blocking a maul? This game has a lot of silliness, but I have learned to accept it all as balance. Vanguard has speed and reach over knight, so why not use it to your advantage?(and it does work, if you play the style that fits your weapon). The two people I mention use faster weapons like claymore or billhook. So idk a legit strategy for zwei users. I rarely lose to one, so I’d say that particular weapon much like the maul, just isn’t very good for dueling.



  • @ChuckingIt:

    @KILLBANDS:

    Wasn’t the whole premiss of Chivalry to get away from the silly dancing wars?
    I’ve seen many dancing players and what they usually end up doing is making themselves look daft as their opponent doesn’t play coy and walks towards them whilst regenning stam and health.

    As silly as a MAA teleporting backwards? Or as as silly as a knight in full armor jumping up and stabbing down into an opponents head? As silly as a dagger blocking a maul? This game has a lot of silliness, but I have learned to accept it all as balance. Vanguard has speed and reach over knight, so why not use it to your advantage?(and it does work, if you play the style that fits your weapon). The two people I mention use faster weapons like claymore or billhook. So idk a legit strategy for zwei users. I rarely lose to one, so I’d say that particular weapon much like the maul, just isn’t very good for dueling.

    Fair enough, but I mention it wasn’t supposed to be in the game as it was one of the key points of the developers about combat before the game was released. It’s sad that this just comes down to it’s not a weapon for dueling.

    I still think fixing the zwei power attack and making all 3 vg sword stabs not 70dmg might be a good thing to do though. Doesn’t make much sense and seems like an oversight / bug.



  • Let me respond to OP’s post first… then i’ll address the rest :

    Charge is useless: mostly yes this is absolutely true, the only time ill ever even attempt it is when the guy isn’t looking and i try and catch him right mid swing on someone else, while i’m tryiing to help abuddy or something. You have to make sure it hits and your aim is true, i don’t like the swinging thrusts as much for this reason, prefer the poke, but i RARELY ever use it.

    Knight is a melee superior class to the vanguard: no… just plain no. They are balanced if you ask me.
    Also knight is not necessarily slower than vanguard, speed has to do with the weapons you choose and the attacks, not the class necessarily.

    You dont think anyone looks at weapons for damage values: anyone that is competetive looks at ALL the damage values, for each attack, in depth and studies them and uses the best attacks. So this is incorrect.

    You start talking about the knight sword and them all being the same… and then you start talking about a claymore, which is a vanguard weapon. You said you were level 35, knew a bunch about the mechanics and classes… it shows bro. Plus, you’re talking about the weapons as if they are all the same. Saying all vanguard weapons are slower than the knight and shit… you clearly don’t understand much in all your 35 levels of gameplay.

    Disengage mechanic? fucking kill your opponent, that’s disengaging them lol. That or die… your choice. You want a teleport away button? Play MAA.

    I guess ill respond to the last part and final conclusion too – you’re wrong, the vanguard doesn’t need a buff, certain weapons maybe could be altered as many in the game probably will have small tweaks and such, but as someone else said, if you don’t see range as an advantage in duels, and the slowness of the vanguard weapons are great for dragging etc. You just don’t use the vanguard correctly, so therefore you percieve it as negligible toward the knight, but you are so far from correct its ridiculous… mr level 35. That’s all i have for YOU.

    Now… Kongen, agreed with your first message except, you can swing the sow.

    Someone said range doesn’t help in duels, you’re silly.

    KILLBANDS… omg did you really just say that vg’s are not made to duel? you need some education bro. When all these people are saying you don’t know much about the game, they are correct.

    Kongen… zwei is useless 1v1? i got a few people that will make you cry.

    jannii - saying the first 2 swords for vg are useless, or saying any weapon in the game is useless … you are wrong too. Don’t post in this thread again lmao.

    Nick, both aggressive play and defensive are rewarded… playing well is rewarded i should say. You need to find a balance. Also, range is not useless in duels, please everyone stop saying that.

    Chucking it: you seem pretty on point, id also have to agree that the maul is pretty crap in duels, but at least you can be scary lookin.

    IN CONCLUSION:
    Vg and knight are a plenty fine matchup, disagree and you are doing vanguard wrong because everyone thinks vanguard is somehow weaker than knight. Played correct they stand on even footing… Using the vanguards range and being patient will be your keys. Each opponnent is going to be different, have a different playstyle, and use a combination of different moves. Each fight in this game is totally dynamic and can always change from 1 mistake. In good duels, 1 mistake will cost you the entire duel. Your opponent can have 1hp, and you full health, but you mess up one time and you can be struck down quickly. Using vanguard requires very good drags, knowing your ranges really well, as well as your opponents range, and using that to your advantage. Leaning back and forward really help if you’re not on that train yet. And watch some good vanguards play and good knights, they are very competetive and in no way does one outclass the other. NO fucking way.



  • You have more than double my play time, yet we’re the same rank. You must really suck at the game.



  • Knight swords versus vanguard swords is a very complex issue.
    Essentially it boils down to knights(the class itself) being superior to vanguards(you know 3hits vs 2). The very small speed advantage is not worth dying THAT much faster. So you need other advantages to compensate(and there is not much left besides the weapon).
    So let me put this short: If a vanguard’s weapon is not much better than a knight’s weapon, then he is not competitive! It IS that simple.

    And a claymore for example is nothing else than a very slightly longer sword of war. The very reason why you do not see claymores in high level play.


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