If there were no cooldowns, the combat would really only be about the abilities. They’re only a compliment to the melee. They’re not the entire show.
Best posts made by Skindiacus
RE: Biggest gameplay flaw right now: Overall game speed
Suggestion: Closing Out
One problem I’m having is that match ending feel really abrupt. We could be having an epic 6 v 6 fight to make the final ark delivery, the suddenly win because of a kill or something. It’s very anticlimactic.
I propose a new mechanic: Closing Out. You can only win by capping the main objective of a map. (Ie delivering the Jinn lamp, the Ark, or a glyph) You can get the maximum 70 points (or whatever it is) with kills and demiglyphs, but after that, capturing demiglyphs does nothing but deny the enemy comeback points.
This would give the defending team a much better opportunity to stay in the game, since they only have to focus on one objective until they get back on their feet and can start going for demiglyphs again. This also means the attacking team will have to coordinate a final push, which is always a great way for a match to end. Frankly, I think that would be a lot more fun then just sending someone to an indefensible demiglyph.
This would also make sense lore-wise. I don’t believe an essence pool can really be “finished off” by someone dying or the weak power of a demiglyph, only depleted to the point that respawning would take a really long time. It would take an actual Jinn to destroy the last of a team’s essence. Of course this is different in TDM, since it’s more of a skirmish and the essence is only used to respawn anyway. Same with TO.
Competitive ranking should be based on win rate
I know I am thinking pretty far ahead, but when a competitive rank system will be set up, it should be solely based on win rate.
What is a matchmaking system really meant to do? Set up games where everyone is at similar skill, right? Well that’s just a simplification. Its goal is to set up games where both teams have the same chance of winning. That’s why most ELO systems are basically just glorified win rate calculators.
So how do we calculate one’s chance of winning? Well, I would argue that your win rate basically is that. When you queue up for a game, your chance of becoming the victor can be estimated at how many times you’ve won/your total number of games. The total win rate of one team should be roughly equal to the total win rate of the other. That means that each team has an equal probability to win.
What if you’re consistently unlucky and you always get queued up with horrible teammates? Or what if you’re very lucky and you get carried every game (like me)? Well, good thing luck is already factored into your win rate. A lot of whether you win or lose is determined more by your team than yourself (you only make up 1/6 of it after all). This system takes luck into account just as much as skill. In fact, it automatically takes into account every possible factor that wins or loses games. Something that is practically impossible to program.
Skill is unevaluable. No game has been able to completely accurately determine how good you are at it. They always only know a large ballpark range. The only way around this is to not rank people based on their indeterminable skill, but their win rates. This means there’s nothing in the game that will tell you how good you are, because there’s no way for the game to know that. All it can tell you is your likelihood of winning.
Here’s an example: Consider these four players:
Player 1: Avg KDR 3.1 - Win Rate 60%
Player 2: Avg KDR 0.2 - Win rate 59%
Player 3: Avg KDR 2.7 - Win rate 40%
Player 4: Avg KDR 0.5 - Win rate 43 %
Which two would you match up? Player two looks really bad based on his KDR, right? But then how is he winning so often? Clearly, something else if going on. Player three is also an outlier. He preforms pretty well with a KDR of 2.7, but for some reason he doesn’t win too often. Which pairs would you pick to have the most equal match?
Skindiacus’s Team Roles and Composition Guide
My qualifications for writing: I have 9k mmr.
I’ll try to avoid using as many numbers as possible, since they are subject to change.
The graphic below shows the six team positions and which classes can fulfil them. If your team has less than six players, generally try to fill up roles starting from the left. The classes further up are better suited for the position in most situations.
If you read the table correctly, you would find that the optimal team composition for most situations is a tinker, two taurants, a vypress, a vigilist, and an entropist. If you’re not sure which classes to pick, this is a safe option. Nevertheless, many swaps could be made depending on whether you’re attacking or defending, the map, the enemy team, the individual playstyles of your teammates, and the skill levels of both teams. (The hindmost isn’t very well defined yet, but it will surely be a large factor.)
This guide will categorize the various playstyles pertaining to each class, and organize them by the roles they fill in the group effort that is not getting steamrolled in Mirage. Hopefully it will be helpful if you’re looking for a specific way to play, or even if you simply want to know on a game-to-game basis what’s the best pick for your team. Name a note that nothing is set in stone. Everything changes drastically with each build, and most matches have been non-competitive, so there is no hard meta in place.
To make best use of this guide, find the position and class you want to find out using the table above, then scroll down to where it is listed. You could also read everything, but that would take a long time. The positions are indexed from 6 to 1. The most recommended class per role is first, with alternate classes following in order of viability. The ‘When to pick’ point discusses the conditions to pick a specific class within that role. Most of the time, it just comes down to personal inclination.
The positions are ordered by how significant it is if they die. With 1 being the most, and 6 the least. This is not the same has how much impact they have. That is determined solely by how well the position is played, as they can all be devastating if played effectively, even position 6. The order of the positions only represents how much the rest of the team must switch up what they’re doing if the position is taken out. For instance, if the mid dies, one frontliner needs to take up their responsibilities. If your healer dies, you will certainly be losing a lot of value, but your team does not have to reorganize to compensate, since their damage output is relatively low.
Position 6: Healing Support
Goal: Keeping your teammates’ healths high.
Description: There is no justifiable way to forgo having an entropist on your roster. The healer conserves momentum from a won fight, and decreases your chances of having a lost fight. If the team has faith in their entropist’s healing capabilities, it also opens a lot of doors to fight more aggressively without fear of coming out with low health if they don’t secure kills. The position 6 player can of course get damage in, they just need to remember that more dps comes out of an alive taurant than an oblivious entropist.
Description: The priority for you healing targets should be anyone at relatively low health that are being attacked, but if everyone’s about the same, the priority list is about the same as the position list (mid first, entropist last). If everyone’s health is maxed, you can start going for that coveted overheal. Healing someone at max health will increase their health even further, which can throw enemies off.
Build: You can’t go wrong. All entropist’s abilities serve the role well.
Positioning: Try to stay away from the centre of any teamfights. Only go in for a hit if you’re confident more of them won’t turn on you. Keep in mind that your F ability offers a great escape vehicle.
When to pick: Always
Position 5: Defensive Support
Goal: Disrupting the enemy’s offensive.
Description: By “The enemy’s offensive” I mean how the enemy will engage your teammates in a fight. This applies to the attacking team and the defending team. The position 5’s job is to deny the enemy the fight they want to have. How this is accomplished depends on the class. The defensive support should also be making sure your team doesn’t get pushed back. In a fight, make a mental line of where you want your frontliners to be, then harass any enemy that tries to push through it. If you’re fighting with your back to an objective, you should also be the one to take it.
Description: Some of Vigilist’s abilities take the form of projectiles that can cancel enemies’ attacks and abilities. In position 5, Vigilist takes a more distant perspective than Vig’s are used to. Take advantage of this to target enemies that are about to deal major damage to your front liners.
Build: Take all projectiles when you can. Take surge instead of disperse. Both Ward Strike and Impaler are good. All F abilities are viable, too.
Positioning: Standing back can be valuable, so you don’t get overwhelmed by enemy hits. You need to be able to land abilities. That being said, you have a lot of health, so it’s not necessarily a bad idea to participate in melee to deal extra damage.
When to pick: It’s safe to pick assuming there’s not already two Vig’s on your team. Vig is a very versatile class, but she cannot move quickly. The main reasons to not pic her is if there is no defined teamfights spot, in which case the entire position 5 role has to adapt into a more fluid fighter who can get around. Also, recognize that Tinker also fulfils position 5 very well.
Description: This is the role Tinker was designed for. 90% of your potential comes from your abilities, with your melee taking a bit of a back seat. Use Stasis to turn the fight into a 4 v 3 for a couple seconds, but hook can also disposition an enemy in your favour. If you throw a mine into a skirmish and hit someone, they will take a bit of damage. Then, it forces them to block later.
Build: You can’t go wrong. All of Tinker’s abilities fit this role.
Positioning: Remember you have very low health. Since you’re most useful for the abilities you put out, try to use them before dying. In general, try to stay outside the middle of fights.
When to pick: Tinker in this position can do well at compromising a single target’s capability of demolishing your whole team with her Qs. If you notice that only one enemy is the main problem, Tinker will help. She also excels on a defending team by placing mines around objectives, which additionally makes her a great pick if teamfights are frequently happening near your defense objectives.
Description: Having two entropists doesn’t hurt. However, you might be lacking a bit of damage. If you’re playing Healing ent in this position, play him as kind of a cross between battle ent and Pos 6 ent.
Build: Abilities that help you survive.
Positioning: Same as position 6. If you have two entropists keeping your team healthy, you shouldn’t have need to put yourself at risk.
When to pick: If you’re really confident in your frontliners’ ability to prevail in their fights. If you have a star player that will go far with a bit of extra health, then perhaps an entropist would accomplish much more than a damage class would.
Description: Mostly, if you’re playing alchemancer, you’re moving around a lot, so you’ll want someone else to be the defensive support. Nonetheless, alchemancer’s abilities suggest that he fits the roll well. The main issue with this is how few options you have. A secondary issue is that you attract enemy players like a magnet. This can be a good thing, but if you’re running away, you’re not dealing damage. Remember that position 5’s goal revolves around keeping teamfights static for your side and disorganized for the other’s.
Build: Hesitantly, I suggest choosing levitate over teleport since it gives you a secure way to stay alive and continue exerting damage if you get run down. In this position, always take rockets.
Positioning: Stay relative far back. Far enough back that your team would have plenty of time to catch anyone that breaks away to go for you. You have ranged attacks, so you can afford to be extremely conservative with your distance. Do not get baited into melee range. It’s not worth it.
When to pick: If the other team is especially vulnerable to projectiles. (Not many Vig’s)
Description: If you really want to play battle entropist, this is the only position I can really recommend him in. Even if you’re just focused on melee, try to get some healing in. It’s still your primary focus. Be aware that if you’re running melee Ent, your team will be grouped up tightly, so you are vulnerable to abilities that hit multiple targets.
Build: Entropist really is a spectrum. You can really play him anywhere in between healing and fighting. Healing is usually better, but your ability choice can vary greatly by personal preference, and still be viable.
Positioning: Skirt in and out. Go in to accomplish your battle Ent goals, then back out for a bit to heal when it’s off cooldown.
When to pick: If you really feel like playing battle entropist, or are a great deal better at Ent than Vig or Tinker for some reason. I can’t think of any situations in which he is objectively the better pick if you’re just using him for combat damage.
Position 4: Hunter
Goal: Disrupting the enemy’s respawning and team recovery. Also, denying safe fallback area.
Description: The Hunter wants to be behind enemy lines, getting kills, and generally giving the opposition a hard time. The equilibrium between the two teams is delicate in Mirage, since there are only six players, and, in fights, your chance to win increases exponentially by how many more are on your side than theirs. If you’re playing position 5, you want to exploit this. Get one key kill, and suddenly a chain reaction starts and it snowballs into an entire teamwipe. For instance, the entropist who died before getting into a fight may have healed the enemy taurant who would otherwise have lived long enough for one of his cooldowns to end. That’s a bit of an extreme example, but basically, because everyone is so important, it is highly beneficial who can have someone in a position to have many chances to get easy kills. If played well, this could also instill a sense of paranoia. Enemies will feel like they can’t be alone, which will slow down their movement and overall give your team control of a lot of the map.
Description: This is what vypress was meant for. Take advantage of your high mobility to get near the enemy team’s spawn quickly in the round. Go for 1v1s that you know you can win. In truth, this role isn’t too complex to explain. Be a shark.
Build: This is Vypress’s default role. All abilities should be fine.
Positioning: Try to stay in between the central conflict and their spawn. Always be on the lookout for a fight you can engage, and try to avoid the enemy spotting you instead. Large teamfights are scary, but hopping into one can be very effective if they aren’t expecting anything form behind.
When to pick: Vypress is the pick 90% of the time. She can accomplish everything this role does comfortably.
Description: I’ve seen very successful hunter alchs. He has relatively high attack speed, and teleport gives him some mobility. Desist from any fights that are not 1v1s. Alchemancer cannot handle them (provided there’s not a massive skill gap).
Build: Go elemental sword (melee). Teleport is better than levitate here because you’ll need a quick escape and high mobility.
Positioning: Alchemancer’s Q and E abilities work from range, so in theory you’d like to be shifting from being in melee burst range to a projectile-throwing distance.
When to pick: In the rare situations in which alchemancer’s Q and E abilities can do more work on a single target than vypress’s. This would be in maps in which the areas next to the spawns are open.
Description: This is a meme role. Hunters should be getting kills to thin down the number of enemies running into your team. Seeing how much people go out of their ways to kill a tasty-looking Alchemancer, hypothetically you could be accomplishing the hunter’s goal just by making some of them run after you for a while.
Build: Teleport in case things get too dicey. If you die, they aren’t getting distracted anymore.
Positioning: Get creative. There’s not really any good way to play this playstyle, anyhow. Run in front of them in an obvious way. Throw a few projectiles at them if they aren’t getting baited.
When to pick: Never.
Position 3 and 2: Frontliners
Goal: Winning fights.
Description: Up until now, everyone’s job has indirectly been ‘help the frontliners’. The name explains it all, you want to be in front of your allies, blocking incoming strikes as well as using melee and abilities to win any skirmishes. The two frontliners are the driving force of the team. They have the most health and damage, and thus carry the majority of the momentum of the group. Since your supports rely heavily on you to stay alive, they should be sticking with you. Things to keep in mind when navigating the map are where the objective is, where your mid is, and the location of the bulk of the enemy team. Take fights that give your mid the space he needs, and take fights over objectives.
Description: This is the taurant’s main role. You can utilize abilities for their AOE potential, but your strength comes from your melee. Hit people. Win fights. Stick with your group.
Build: Whirlwind is generally better for the frontline.
Positioning: Make sure you’re in between the enemy and your supports. Punish anyone who tries to run past you.
When to pick: Taurant has less health than vig, but usually can exert more DPS. The two classes are relatively equal when it comes to viability in this position. Do not pick Taurant if your team’s main issue is getting assaulted by projectiles.
Description: Vigilist has the most health in the game. This makes her ideal for being in front. You synergise well with anyone casting projectiles behind you, since you can keep an enemy distracted for a long period. Take advantage of how you can’t die easily. If you have Iron Dome, drop in in an area that you want to deny, such as an objective. It’s far to easy to just ignore it if you drop it in the middle of nowhere.
Build: Pick Disperse over Surge. You’ll mostly be in melee range, so Surge will get interrupted. Disperse can also be great for dispersing.
Positioning: You can’t move very quickly. When you choose a position to fight in, try to commit to it. Don’t go chasing after a fleeing vypress if it means leaving your supports vulnerable. Also, I’m going to repeat that you have a lot of health. Stand your ground.
When to pick: She should be picked only slightly less than the taurant. Having one Vig and one taurant also works well. Vigilist counters projectiles; pick her if your team is getting spammed down.
Position 1: Mid
Goal: Winning the game.
Description: “Mid” is a misleading title. In reality, the mid wants to be everywhere. It just so happens that you need to go through mid to be everywhere, so that’s where they’ll commonly be found. Position 1 wants to be taking objectives. Usually, this means influencing the teamfight such that your team ends up getting control of the area in which the objectives are located, but sometimes this means going solo and capping the objectives yourself whilst no one is paying attention. The mid is played differently depending on the class.
Description: Tinker is the best class at securing objectives. If you’re playing Tinker mid, you’ll want to mostly stay near your team. When you win a critical fight nearby an objective, take full profit by trapping the objective with mines. Mines are easy to block or destroy, but remember that if your enemy is blocking a mine, it gives your teammates a free strike on them. Even just splitting their focus between your mines and your teammates makes the idea of a retake unlikely for your opponents. For maximum efficiency, when you’re not trapping objectives, play teamfight tinker who is ever powerful. Objective Tinker is even stronger on defense, since you’ll be on the objective before the enemy team even has a chance to contest.
Build: Anything goes.
Positioning: Avoid dying. If you can tell a teamfight is going sideways, consider abandoning to save your own skin. It can be worth it if it means being able to reassemble your team quicker after they respawn.
When to pick: Almost always on defense. If you’re on offense and the opposing team is very strong, consider playing another class.
Description: Alchemancer can control the most territory at one time, simply by being able to see it. Get to a high place and harass any enemies with projectiles. They might be able to block you, but most will prefer taking alternate routes that hide them. This is exactly what you want because it gives your team most of the map to move around in freely, and greatly reduces the enemy’s options. Alchemancer can sometimes be lacking in the capability to personally take objectives, since they usually are in places that cut off his vision, but if you clear the way of enemy players, your team should naturally take it for you. It’s like curling.
Build: Anything goes.
Positioning: Stay away from enemies. Be at a high place with lots of vision.
When to pick: A good enemy vypress can shut you down completely. Vigilists and other alchemancers can also give you a hard time. It depends on the enemy’s picks, and how good the players are at their roles.
Description: Taurant is versatile, and a powerhouse. He has mediocre speed, which lets you traverse between parts of the map. Mid taurant can also act like a third frontliner in teamfights, so that’s a plus. Basically, just play as a teamfighter who happens to be conscious of the objective.
Build: Unlike teamfight taurant, I actually get boulder on mid taurant. Mostly because mid taurant is less likely to initiate teamfights, so he can throw a boulder after the fight starts and before he joins in. Charge or Leapslam comes down to personal preference, as both can be impactful in fights after they have started.
Positioning: You can be anywhere. Of course, capture objectives, but in between you can be directly with your team, or a little to the side as a quick reinforcement.
When to pick: Pick taurant if your team lacks strength. Sometimes a tinker or an alchemancer just can’t win the fights you need to win.
Description: Vypress fears teamfights. She dies too quickly. However, she can also move quickly. An objective-focused vypress should be running around from objective to objective, taking them and killing individuals in your way. More than one player is a bit of a roadblock though. Only pick Vypress under specific circumstances.
Build: Build all mobility. Dash attack and grappling hook.
Positioning: Do the objectives.
When to pick: Pick if your teammates are absolutely dominating, and your biggest problem is just getting to objectives rather than fighting the people there. This is especially true on CTF maps. You can play Vypress like a courier and shut out the map quickly if the enemy team is getting spawn camped.
Description: Objective Vigilist is the opposite of objective vypress, except somehow less viable. She is only useful if you are struggling to capture objectives, as she is slow. Play her exactly like a frontliner, but don’t take any fights that don’t directly lead to capturing an objective.
Build: As defensive as possible. What that means depends on the player. If you’re picking vigilist for position 1, things are going badly for you, so crazy desperate plays are on the table.
Positioning: Make an imaginary line between you and the objective. You cannot afford to deviate from it.
When to pick: Pick objective vigilist if your team is getting demolished. Despite how focused you may be, it won’t matter if you just die in one hit. Otherwise, she isn’t very useful in position 1.
That is the pre-beta predictive meta. Please share any criticism or anything else you want me to add. I probably will. Take all this with a grain of salt, especially for the matchmaking test tomorrow. The game is still very casual right now, and you should just play whoever you want. This guide is mostly if you’re out of ideas, or want to explore ways to help your team better.
RE: Suggestion: Closing Out
Alright. I’ve played a lot of Mirage over the past four days. Mostly, it feels great. No complaints here about combat or movement speed. The biggest problem for me is still the way maps end. I’m aware that TB’s mind is probably already made on the matter, but I have two more points I want to make, so why not.
Everything feels like TDM. This is coming from a very objective-focused player. I will turn away from a fight if it means delivering the flag faster. Even when focusing on objectives, the tick system really makes it feel like TDM except you get bonus points from demiglyphs every once in a while. There is tension around objectives sometimes, like a really long back and forth carrying of the flag on ctf_lighthouse. That is great, but when your first points comes from kills, and the map ends because of a kill, the impact of the objectives in between is lost. The maps just kind of bleed into each other. There are rarely climaxes. Maybe this is the effect you were going for, Idk. It just feels very casual. I don’t know how ranked is going to work, but I think it will be tiring to lose rank when it doesn’t even feel like the enemy has taken some final objective. I like the current tick system, but there might as well just be a 10:00 timer for how maps end.
I’ve been playing a lot of Undertale recently. If there’s anything I’ve learned from it, it that you’ve gotta have hope and determination. Memes (?) aside, though, I challenge anyone to find something more exiting in a team v. team game than epic comebacks. Especially to objective focused players, having the feeling of “It’s not over 'til it’s over” and then defending until your team can push back is really rewarding. In Mirage right now, you can talk about perseverance all you want. If you’re five deaths away from losing and you still need 30 points, there’s really nothing you can do. All it does is put a lot of pressure onto people to not die. There can be no grand final fight, because of course a few of you will die, and the game will be over even if the losing team was holding on to the objective. One of the best moments for me this Alpha Round was when we came back from 120 points - 123 points. That comeback was barely possible, and the fact that on an objective map the last moments were basically just TDM is really lame to me. It was still the one of the moments because it was super tense, but it could be better.
TLDR; I wind a closing out mechanic because objective maps don’t feel like objective maps and the current lose-by-death system makes being on the losing teams usually hopeless. (Along with any reasons mentioned in previous posts)
RE: First impressions thread!
- No feints, really? I understand, that some people consider them dirty or whatever, but it works both ways. Tricks may save life, especially when fighting multiple foes.
Press R to cancel your attack.
RE: Briefly why I didn't enjoy the first 30 minutes of the alpha but a couple hours later couldn't stop playing
- Not sure if anything can be done about this as it just comes with the genre, but I’ll list it anyways. I felt a bit overwhelmed with all of the different classes and tons of abilities happening everywhere. I don’t think that the current system is bad, but new players will feel overwhelmed by it all. Again, I know this comes with the genre. If you figure out a way to improve on this, it would be huge.
Small prediction: By release, all except the first row of abilities are going to be locked, so that newer players only have to deal with 3 of them at first. That’s what they did with Chivalry’s vast arsenal of weapons.
RE: thanks for getting most of my topics locked
This is what I’m talking about.
RE: Proximity Voice Chat?
I think the current voice system is just for the Alpha, much like how there’s no autobalance.
As for proximity VOIP, I don’t know. It’s just not really something I want to have to care about.
Also, here’s my other problems:
- It would raise the strategy of just running at the opposing team and playing a really loud, high-pitched sound so that they won’t be able to hear their teammates.
- Being able to talk to the other team would just be a breeding ground of toxicity. Text chat is bad enough.
- It would just hurt communication. I’m really looking forward to the cool plays competitive Mirage teams will pull off. It would kind of suck if you just couldn’t talk after you leave spawn
- It would give a huge advantage to people using discord/teamspeak. I think we can agree any mechanic that allows you to gain an advantage by using external programs is not a good one.
RE: My Feedback From Two Days of Play
So I was reading the part about shortening the respawn timers, which I am against. I was thinking, but it’s so important to punish death though, since there’s only 6 players on each team. I get that respawning is boring, but you’re still able to watch your team and see how they’re doing, right? I was about to dismiss it, then:
Maybe a compromise could be that you make the timers dynamic, make them longer as the game goes on.
Um. Yes. That would actually be amazing. If respawn timers were a function of how close the objectives were to ending, that would add a whole new layer of suspense. At the beginning of each objective, it’s just a giant bloodbath, but by the end, everything matters. I would definitely accept that compromise.
Bash Capturing Points in Bazaar Should Give Points
Every other objective in the game (almost) gives you points when you capture it. On the first stage of Bazaar, it’s really important for Bashraan to capture points A and B. I don’t see why accomplishing that does not deserve XP or score tbh.
RE: Release Build Feedback
Another argument for the teamdamage thing is the huge advantage that gives facehugging in a 1vX. I’ve been in fights where I’ve been focusing on a super aggressive Vyp wildly swinging at me, to have a Tauant axe stab through her and kill me when my block was down. That’s not how things should be done imo.